https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/ Guitar Noise Discussion Board en-US Fri, 05 Jun 2026 10:03:03 +0000 wpForo 60 https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-80055 Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:24:55 +0000 Bass Players Discussion DemoEtc https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-80055 https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-80015 Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:59:32 +0000 these, pointed at the player's head. Monitors should be set up so that they point at the heads of the people who are going to be using them.

It is amazing how much you can reduce stage volumes by pointing the speakers at the heads of the people who are going to be listening to them. It's also amazing how many singers and guitarists think that being in the general vicinity of a monitor will be fine. IT'S GOT TO BE POINTED AT YOUR HEAD! It can't be hitting you in your chest, and it can't be shooting over your head. Stand far enough back so that an imaginary line of energy shooting out of the center of the speaker hits you between the eyes. With proper placement of monitors and amps, the performers are happy because they can hear themselves, the soundman is happy because he doesn't have to compete with the monitors for his FOH mix, and the audience is happy because everything sounds better.

(Since the monitors point away from the audience, they will hear a loud monitor mix as it bounces off the wall behind the performers. It will arrive at their ears a split-second after the mix from the FOH speakers, and make everything sound muddy).

Also, getting combo amps up off the floor makes the amp sound better. You don't have all the reflections bouncing up off the floor and muddying up the tone.

Sorry, bad monitor placement is one of my pet peeves from when I used to mix for a 3000-seat auditorium at a Christian conference center.]]> Bass Players Discussion wishus https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-80015 https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-80009 Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:04:27 +0000
The thing is, we all had a good time last night and our focus wasn't being distracted from where it was supposed to be. We all had our opportunity to shine for God and we all focused on Him and not weather we were making people sick by the way we were sounding. It doesn't matter when all is said and done, but subconsciously it happens and you tell yourself it wont or it doesn't but the fact is that when you are playing a song you still hear things and as a band (a group of individuals joined together making one sound on their musical instruments) you run into road blocks from time to time and you have to figure out ways to get around them comfortably without breaking down and without causing a distraction to others. Yes, I know; just because you're playing for different reasons, it doesn't somehow make you deaf to what's going on, lol. You're still a musician and it's still hard, especially if you came from a pro secular situation. The roadblocks are there, like any place else, but there are workarounds. :)
I talked to our lead singer and he thought that what we did is worth a try in our chappel but like I said yesterday he isn't to excited about having a blaring guitar right behind him all the time. We then joked around about putting up a drum shield around him so he could play as load as he wants without drowning us all out. Sometimes, and I'm only saying sometimes, the reason a guy plays too loud is because he can't hear himself (like you mention below about the acoustic guy). It happens especially with guitar, because guitar cabs - and the frequencies they produce - are way more 'directional' than say, bass cabs. It's just the nature of the soundwaves. With this said, sometimes if a guy is standing while he plays and he has say, a smaller combo type amp, the sound of his guitar will be going out at maybe knee-level and then out to the audience. He'll hear it, but it'll be softer because his ear is not level with the speaker, and because of that sometimes the guitar guy will crank it so he can hear himself. On the other hand some guys will just play too loud no matter what - even if they use a 4x12 slanted cab (which aims the top 2 speakers upward toward the ear). But if the guy is using a combo, sometimes leaning the amp backward a little or tilting it back, will aim it up to where his ears are, and he'll be able to hear himself fine, but also play at a lower volume. It's like using his amp as a personal monitor. And in most places, it'll still be loud enough to reach the audience.

There were times where I played guitar instead of bass, and I had a small MusicMan 1x10 combo. The thing is though, I already knew about stage volume from secular bands, so I set the combo up on a chair and sat next to it. I could hear it and everybody else could, but it wasn't loud.

You could try that as a workaround.
I had a nice talk with one of our acc. guitarists yesterday also. He told me that I mentioned something to him one time about blending with the rest of the band that he liked. There was a day he told me that he couldn't hear himself out of the monitors enough and so I told him that sometimes you wont hear the parts that are required of the acc. guitar enough to actualy use the monitor for yourself alone. This is just for the blending with the rest of us. Now he says when he cant hear it clearly it means he is blending in. I was about floored with amazment. I said yep you got it. It may be that when you can't hear your guitar clearly as one instrument you are blending together with drums, bass, keyboard, vocals, and whatever else to make one instrument. And then he said, yeah if I had all of the instruments on stage at the touch of a finger to play when I commanded I wouldn't have them all playing everything they have all at once.

This guy is our worste player and usually is a back-up in many situations, but because of a great unselfish attitude like this he has become one of the best in my book. I was told one time by a graduate of a music school that its not how well you play in a band situation but it is actually when you play and with how much sensitivity. Yah it's a little tougher with acoustic guitars unless they've got a built-in pickup and are going through their own little amp. And especially if the guy is singing. Sometimes that can be gotten around if the mixing board has separate monitor mixes (which ours didn't), where you can dedicate one monitor mix just for the acoustic guy; then all he hears is the vocals and his guitar. He has the right idea though; sometimes if you can barely hear yourself, it's perfectly balanced out where the people are.

That other guy is totally correct though; it's all about sensitivity. Sensitivity to the overall sound picture, the song, the singers and what's more, the other musicians. Think of it this way; if every musician in the band focused on every other musician and then tried to match their volume and feel, then everything would balance itself out. It's like that weird auto commercial from a few years ago - I don't know if you saw it, but basically it was a four-way intersection and four cars drove up and stopped and then, instead of trying to beat the other through the intersection, they leaned out their windows and said "No, that's okay - YOU go first!" It was sorta funny because in real life that doesn't happen - but it could. Especially musically. If every musician listened to each of the others and respected and appreciated what they were doing, as much or more than what they were doing, it would be a wonderful situation. It would be like "No, YOU be featured," or "You go first." That kind of thing. It can happen when people give way to each other and are musically 'polite' so to speak.
I have struggled with being confident in my choices instrumentally/orchestrationally from time to time and still do, but when it all comes together as one, and for the one, it is something quite amazing. I know not to live for that though because that is asking for trouble. To play for God as you said is the most important thing we can do up there. It is the most single thing that counts even when all is said and done. Yes, it really is amazing. Sometimes though, people really mess it up, even ourselves, by 'living for' it as you say. It's like, just be there, do your thing the best that you can, and then whatever happens, happens. I think lots of people forget what the real meaning of "Sovereign" is, and they assume too many things and try to force issues and responses. It doesn't have to be like that. :)
Hey, too bad we can't get togeter and jam sometime. You seem like a pretty cool guy. Thanks for your help and encouragment. Let me know when you are in town and maybe you can visit our church. You can go to this site to check us out. GGCTAC.org Do you ever get to Tacoma Wa. ?

God Bless DemoETC

Dougdouggin
You too man! The drive from Los Angeles to Tacoma's a little long ( :) ), but thanks for the invitation. Glad I could be of help :)]]> Bass Players Discussion DemoEtc https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-80009 https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79947 Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:30:27 +0000
The thing is, we all had a good time last night and our focus wasn't being distracted from where it was supposed to be. We all had our opportunity to shine for God and we all focused on Him and not weather we were making people sick by the way we were sounding. It doesn't matter when all is said and done, but subconsciously it happens and you tell yourself it wont or it doesn't but the fact is that when you are playing a song you still hear things and as a band (a group of individuals joined together making one sound on their musical instruments) you run into road blocks from time to time and you have to figure out ways to get around them comfortably without breaking down and without causing a distraction to others.

I talked to our lead singer and he thought that what we did is worth a try in our chappel but like I said yesterday he isn't to excited about having a blaring guitar right behind him all the time. We then joked around about putting up a drum shield around him so he could play as load as he wants without drowning us all out.

I had a nice talk with one of our acc. guitarists yesterday also. He told me that I mentioned something to him one time about blending with the rest of the band that he liked. There was a day he told me that he couldn't hear himself out of the monitors enough and so I told him that sometimes you wont hear the parts that are required of the acc. guitar enough to actualy use the monitor for yourself alone. This is just for the blending with the rest of us. Now he says when he cant hear it clearly it means he is blending in. I was about floored with amazment. I said yep you got it. It may be that when you can't hear your guitar clearly as one instrument you are blending together with drums, bass, keyboard, vocals, and whatever else to make one instrument. And then he said, yeah if I had all of the instruments on stage at the touch of a finger to play when I commanded I wouldn't have them all playing everything they have all at once.

This guy is our worste player and usually is a back-up in many situations, but because of a great unselfish attitude like this he has become one of the best in my book. I was told one time by a graduate of a music school that its not how well you play in a band situation but it is actually when you play and with how much sensitivity.

I have struggled with being confident in my choices instrumentally/orchestrationally from time to time and still do, but when it all comes together as one, and for the one, it is something quite amazing. I know not to live for that though because that is asking for trouble. To play for God as you said is the most important thing we can do up there. It is the most single thing that counts even when all is said and done.

Hey, too bad we can't get togeter and jam sometime. You seem like a pretty cool guy. Thanks for your help and encouragment. Let me know when you are in town and maybe you can visit our church. You can go to this site to check us out. GGCTAC.org Do you ever get to Tacoma Wa. ?

God Bless DemoETC



Dougdouggin]]> Bass Players Discussion Doudouggin https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79947 https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79769 Tue, 14 Dec 2004 17:20:45 +0000

Main House Speaker..............................................................Mains

Trumpet
...............Piano

.........................Singers

...................Electric Gtr....Bass Gtr......Drums

I was closest to the drummer, which was good, but the electric piano was coming through the monitors everywhere and drowned things out pretty much. I think it was worse for the singers because they were getting the piano mixed in with their voices, and the electric guitarist was way loud right behind them. When things would get weird, I'd just focus in on the drummer and the singers - in any song the singer or choir is the most important part, musically and arrangement-wise. Beginner players always tend to forget that fact; all the instruments MUST take a support role for the singer or choir.

And it gets harder when there's a full on choir because then the musicians have to play *even* less - especially the mid frequency instruments like guitar. The guitars have to play almost nothing when backing up a choir because all those mid and high frequencies are (or should be) dedicated to the singers. When you're on the bass though, usually there's nobody down there with you and you can groove along happily with the drums, but in my case, the piano player played a full keyboard part, the two handed style with low octaves in the left hand and full chords in the right - the style where normally it's just the piano and singers. That put him down in my range and muddied things up - especially since we never rehearsed and he walked on three minutes before service. We'd get little song lists and we had fake-books which we could pull from, but it was all hurried. It really did wonders for my ear though because it was like a full on improvisation every time :)

There were 'moments' though where things floated upward and was received, but just about always, there was no time to let the 'visitor' linger and enjoy and the mood, so to speak, was always broken by time constraints.

That was a pity.

But yes, sometimes sitting on the other side of the drummer or putting one of the bass speakers right up next to his seat can help because it creates a musical link between the two main parts of the rhythm section, and that's where the 'grooves' start to happen. It still must be in support of the singers, but in our case, everyone was always concentrating on following the piano/singer/director, and it....could've been way better than it was.

Also, sometimes positioning yourself with your 'favored' ear toward the drummer helps; the ear you usually put the receiver to when you're on the phone. For me, my favored ear, my left, was away from the drummer, so I turned my chair slightly toward the drummer. I'm left handed too, so usually I like to be on the right side of the drummer so I don't have to look over my shoulder at him or turn so far; if you're right handed, being on the left of the drummer is probably the best.

And you know, when you say "Wait that sounds weird, but it was cool" - don't think it's weird to have something come out cool sounding, like it's egotistical or something like that. When you're pleased, the 'one' is pleased too. There's a big difference from being arrogant and self centered and being happy with what you do. :)]]> Bass Players Discussion DemoEtc https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79769 https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79736 Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:42:00 +0000 Bass Players Discussion Doudouggin https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79736 https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79542 Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:13:19 +0000
Today was a good test for me. Our drummer dropped something on his foot at work so he couldn't play today. I told our keyboard player that since he could play the drums ok that it would be good if he took his place. That left us with two accoustic guitars, bass and drums. Something told me that it was going to be one of those Sundays so I tried to get my mind working on how to add to the band and not take away. I started out with the rehersal of our first song which is in G and walks up to a C and then walks up to a higher G briefly and returns to the lower G for an intro. The song was fine while the intro was playing but after that the acc. Guitars came in and my bass lines wouldn't blend together with how they were playing. I couldn't walk within the progressions. There was no room. I thought, at first, You gotta tell them that they cant strum all six stings because it will get cluttered, but something told me to try something different in the way I was playing. I thought, try just playing the root notes with the same rythmn that they are using. It sorta worked.

I was not enjoying it much, and I thought it sounded a bit dull, but it was at least meshing together. I tried to add a little thing or to here or there but I had to pick my places very strategekly, and limit them to a very few or none at all. I also changed my tone to better match up with what they were doing. I used the back pickup more and it reminded me of a song that would use an accoustic bass and maybe some conga drums or other percussian. Anyway it was a little bit of a success story. I am not looking forward to playing like that all the time though and hopfully I will be able to let go a bit more, but until then I gotta do what I gotta do. Maybe if somebody has any Ideas on how to play along with a full rythmn sound that I am competing with that could be helpful. Thanks a lot.

Dougdouggin]]> Bass Players Discussion Doudouggin https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79542 https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79239 Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:40:56 +0000
One way you might arrange to have them (I'm assuming the two guys who disrupt thing), is to invite them to form a little side project that's separate from the one you're planning to do. It would be like having two separate sub-groups that can do a song or two, except with them, you let them thrash it out the way they want, and then you and the sub-group you really have your heart into plays the stuff you've worked on. Everybody comes out happy hopefully.

With some personalities there's no teaching them or showing them because they are too wrapped up in themselves - even in an atmosphere where things should be (or could be) just the opposite - selfless. And just because someone spoke a few words and gave themselves doesn't mean it really happened. It's a process and the process is painful at times and is one of deletion - like deleting certain aspects (negative ones), and letting them drop away. The last to go is the ego, and that's the toughest, and some would say the one which is not possible to let go of. I think that's mostly true, but there's levels and degrees that it can be defeated.

But there it is onstage in the very place it shouldn't be, doing the one thing it can't - by right - do: P&W.

A little side story: once there was a place and it was happening, but then a certain fellow showed up who played guitar. The leader praised him for his skills and they all began to play, and what was 'happening' wasn't any longer.

And then a question went out as to why it wasn't happening up there, and a small, soft voice said, "Because there's no room for Me up there..." And it was true because the ego and self-importance stood tall on that stage. Heck, even cherubim aren't that tall, lol.

But what you seem to have been led to begin Doudouggin, that seems good and you should persue it - but not at the cost of others; you know that though, I know.

Even in the general gathering though, you can still have 'fun' as you say, if you remember to Whom you are playing. It's not for the people, really, it's not for the leader or the general body; it's for the One; plain and simple. And sometimes, that can be enough :)]]> Bass Players Discussion DemoEtc https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79239 https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79102 Thu, 09 Dec 2004 23:51:13 +0000 Bass Players Discussion Doudouggin https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79102 https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79054 Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:48:30 +0000
In a professional band situation you'd be the one who would be band leader or arranger, and in a pro band situation - where money's involved and a certain level of real musicianship is needed to make money - you'd be the one to choose the players and to 'unchoose' players - meaning fire them from the band. In P&W type situations though, the feeling is always about people 'giving' and 'adding in' and becoming part of the whole movement, and doing it out of love and a desire to serve, and therefore there can't technically be any professionalism, and therefore there can't be any firing of people. It's dealing with people's inner most desire to join in and serve, and there's a certain point, in those situations, where you just have to overlook certain things.

But it's tough because you can 'hear.' In not so many words, you can discern things that other's can't (because of a lack of proficiency on their instrument) or won't (ego and self still abounds where you play, sometimes more than in the outside) and it winds up just very frustrating.

And your (not you in particular, but 'one's') desire is to make everything better and more pleasing and it just ain't happening. I hear you on that, big time.

There's no real solution to that except to perhaps start little side projects with selected people, or even within the main W group, form a P&W 'team' to do one or two tunes. There you will probably be stepping on feet and egos - especially of the music director - but if done in a loving manner, it may work. As you've described it, you probably *are* talking about the P&W team already, and so it feels like there's no solution.

But don't quit music on account of the others. Sometimes music is given to us just for these occasions. The private times, the quiet times. Sometimes we try to bring our gift out to share with others when maybe it wasn't intended for that. The choice seems to be quit or put up with it, but in either case it shouldn't mean to quit music entirely. You obviously love it, having played for so long, and it would be a shame to throw it away because of others.

Most times when people speak of 'gift' or 'gifts' or 'gifted' it takes on a certain meaning that has become the norm. As in 'wow, she's a 'gifted' musician.' But if you think of it as a 'gift' like something wrapped up in a pretty package and handed to you for you to enjoy and cherish - I mean, what birthday present will have gas and light bills in it? lol - but it's a present given to you to have fun with and make you smile, it's almost like the Giver is pleased when you are.

That sort of concept.

And think of the opposite effect when you throw that same gift away.

Anyhow, we can have a back-and-forth on this if you like.

Take care now.]]> Bass Players Discussion DemoEtc https://guitarnoise.forum/bass-players-discussion/my-grooves-are-washed-out-by-the-rest-of-the-band/#post-79054