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30/05/2006 8:32 pm
Sorry, I don't believe you can rise to an 'elite' level simply by hard work! Elite, is by definition, the very highest level, attained only by a few.
I will never, ever be as good as Clapton, though I might one day be able to play a few of his tunes, just like I will never play golf at Tiger Woods' level! No matter how much I practice. Using the sports analogy, many golfers practice as much, if not more, than Woods, but he tends to lead the money lists more often than not.
and I also dispute the assertion that improvisational skills are not important in classical, I know little about it but would bet someone with a decent ear could tell the difference between, say, Segovia and Joh Williams, or another guitarist playing the same tune?
30/05/2006 8:38 pm
King I would agree completely with what you just wrote, the key is to know your limitations.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
30/05/2006 8:47 pm
Sorry, I don't believe you can rise to an 'elite' level simply by hard work! Elite, is by definition, the very highest level, attained only by a few.
I just respectfully disagree. With proper mentoring, proper motivation, and the right focused practice, anyone can be a top level musician. The elite are the elite becuase they put in that quality time when others don't.
Sure, some folks will just be really good at some aspect of musicianship, and they'll have a leg up because for some reason they're just a bit better at learning that particular skill. Much like some people just run faster than others. But the really great musicians will tell you that they don't think there's anything special about themselves, they just work hard at what they love.
The biggest difference is that the top flight musicians know how to practice so as to make the most of their time and effort.
I will never, ever be as good as Clapton
And believing that is a large part of what makes it true.
Although I'll likewise note that if you're an adult, it's very unlikely that you'll find the time to put in to working on the instrument.
An hours worth of quality work at 12-16 is probably the same as about 3 weeks worth of quality work at 55. Simply because neurons make connections more easily the younger you are.
Using the sports analogy, many golfers practice as much, if not more, than Woods, but he tends to lead the money lists more often than not.
Woods put in hour after hour after hour under his father's tutalage learning how to win. So he's exceptionally good at performing under pressure. That's different from practicing putting. I don't see it as a refutation but as a confirmation that proper training makes all the difference.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
30/05/2006 8:48 pm
When ricola says that "there is more to guitar playing than learning the "skill". It takes more than just practising a skill. Yes eventually you'll get somewhat good at it maybe even very good, but you'd never be as good as those who have a natural talent/ability and an ear for music." I think he's just wrong.
Okay, so if I'm a pitcher for a baseball team and I practice pitching everyday, 12 hours a day, eat, sleep, breathe baseball, read eveything I can, strength train, etc... I'll be able to throw just as fast as Nolan Ryan, whose fastball was "officially" clocked by the Guinness Book of World Records at 100.9 miles per hour in a game played on August 20, 1974. Uh no....That would be more than skill, that would be natural ability and talent. I don't care how hard I worked at the skill of throwing a baseball, I would never be able to throw a ball 100.9MPH.
and if you still disagree then we can just agree to disagree...
if you're a pitcher for a baseball team and you practice pitching everyday, 12 hours a day, eat, sleep and breathe baseball, and do all else you stated above, you will end up being a GREAT pitcher, because that's what it takes. I have no idea about pitching speed but you would be among the best at what you do.
30/05/2006 8:53 pm
if you're a pitcher for a baseball team and you practice pitching everyday, 12 hours a day, eat, sleep and breathe baseball, and do all else you stated above, you will end up being a GREAT pitcher, because that's what it takes. I have no idea about pitching speed but you would be among the best at what you do.
If you saw my softball skills you might think otherwise! :lol: :lol:
Psa. 42:8
By day the LORD commands his steadfast love,
and at night his song is with me, a prayer to the God of my life.
30/05/2006 8:59 pm
if you're a pitcher for a baseball team and you practice pitching everyday, 12 hours a day, eat, sleep and breathe baseball, and do all else you stated above, you will end up being a GREAT pitcher, because that's what it takes. I have no idea about pitching speed but you would be among the best at what you do.
If you saw my softball skills you might think otherwise! :lol: :lol:
Hey, I was a band geek for a reason too! :)
Although I was lucky enough to be a large immobile object, so I made a good football player :)
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
30/05/2006 9:16 pm
So you why didn't you put a bit of effort in and become a great football player?
I can accept I won't be as good as Clapton, but it won't stop me trying to be and in the process becoming as good as I can within my ageavailable time constraints.
Re Woods, again I would argue that lots of the highest level players are able to perform under pressure, which is why they can win big tournaments under extra-ordinary pressure! I have got nervous golfing infront of 1 or 2 passers-by, never mind 100+ thousand! Yet not all golfers can play at Tigers level year after year!
However, I am going to bow out as this is going round in circles as well as off-topic! I'll believe what I believe and you are welcome to believe what you want ;)
30/05/2006 9:23 pm
So you why didn't you put a bit of effort in and become a great football player?
Ummm, cause I like having working knees, not having bruises all over my body on Saturday morning, and I have no problem not partaking in the male locker-room bonding . . .
:)
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
30/05/2006 9:38 pm
52 replies. thought i'd make it 53!
30/05/2006 9:51 pm
Well, I've read the back-n-forth replies and looks like you two disagree and I'm guessing we're not gonna get much further on this one. I can't even remember what the topic of the original post was...
"Nothing...can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts."
Topic starter
31/05/2006 5:58 am
I never really saw my limitations as a list of things I can't do, or things that I never will be able to do. I see is as, I know my weaknesses, so what can I do to devote strength to them? Or even better, how can I use my own weaknesses as strengths?
I don't think if I sat there and said "I will never be able to......" that it would help me at all. If I said to myself that I will never be able to be this good or do this skill, then I've already shot myself down. Gave myself a negative attitude to it and closed my mind to any possible solutions. I believe that any problem conceived by a mortal mind can be solved. But if I say to myself right at the get go that I can't do it......then hey, I won't be able to.
Apart from natural ability and how much you practice, there is something else that will effect how quickly you learn, and that's attitude. A person that feels they can achieve anything and has a positive attitude is more likely to learn faster and more than a person that's negative and says they can't do this. Maybe it's just a small thing but chances are, if you have a more positive attitude, you won't give up as easily, you won't get frustrated as fast and will be generally more open minded.
May be a bit naive, but I think it's what's helped me along.
31/05/2006 11:36 am
Maybe it's just a small thing but chances are, if you have a more positive attitude, you won't give up as easily, you won't get frustrated as fast and will be generally more open minded.
I'd agree 100%! Enjoying what your doing will take you a long way.
Psa. 42:8
By day the LORD commands his steadfast love,
and at night his song is with me, a prayer to the God of my life.
31/05/2006 2:03 pm
May be a bit naive, but I think it's what's helped me along.
I don't think that's naive at all. My students who have a "can do" attitude excel. Those that look at every new thing and go "oh many that's hard, I'll never do that." don't.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- HST
01/06/2006 8:28 pm
In actual fact Micky Dolenz played guitar long before joining the Monkees. At his audition, he played Johnny B. Goode. Day Jones never played an instrument in the Monkees, that I remember (other than the tambourine)
I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
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Topic starter
01/06/2006 9:23 pm
see, i don't think that the athlete comparison holds water. athletes are limited by their physical bodies, and therefore have a definite arc to their careers, peaking around 27 and declining quickly after that. musicians, on the other hand, are not limited by their bodies, but by their minds. now, if you don't have a sense of rhythm or melody, you're probably screwed, but for most people it's more just a matter of pursuing the sounds they hear or feel in their heads or souls or whatever. maybe playing the guitar was an athletic event, with notes per minute being the ultimate goal, then there'd be a physical limitation, but it's not. now, most people aren't going to be mozart, simply because they didn't start at 3 years old and have perfect pitch and were driven relentlessly... but don't tell me you can't play like clapton. what does clapton do but play the same blues riffs he spent hours copying in his teens. none of his songs are virtuostic pieces, and to be honest i don't care for his voice, but he plays with a great deal of taste and experience. every note sounds as good as it does because he has a million hours of hard work and passion behind it.
anyway, it's only my opinion. i may be right or wrong.