A little Advanced Chord Theory

I've got to agree with Serickso , augmented and diminic-shed chords are not usually used to modulate in popular music. By popular I mean rock,blues,pop,country, most jazz,folk, whatever. Everything but classical, about which I cannot speak authoritatively.
In practice, diminished chords are used in one of three ways:
(1) to connect a 1 chord to a 2m ; for example,the beginning of 'Friends in low places" by Garth Brooks. A,A#dim,Bm.
(2) to connect a 5 chord to a 6m: for example (in the key of G) D, D#dim, Em.Going into the chorus of "Wind Beneath My Wings" is an example.
(3)As part of a blues or swing progression which goes like this. in the key of C: C, C7, F,F#dim (one bar each)
(C A7)(D7 G7) resolving back to C. "Back to Lousiana" countless other examples.

Also IN PRACTICE, augmented chords usually take the place of the 5 (dominant)7 chord to introduce the 1 (tonic) chord. The second most common place is between a 1 and a 4 chord, or between a 1 and a  1sixth chord . G,Gaug,C or G,Gaug,G6 .

I have actually made a study of this. This is from charting every kind of music from blues to pop to fusion to rock, etc. for almost  40 years.

There are several instances where music theory and popular music do not necessarily agree. Most popular songs were not written by people with music degrees. Not in the last 40 years anyway. I try to teach my students the simplest and most practical way possible, taking into account the kinds of music they want to play.

            http://www.guitarforsongwriters.com

meant to say "demonic shred" chords.

most 7,9,11 and 13 chords are just dressed up dominant seventh chords and are used to introduce the
1 chord. Not always, just usually.

"I meant when people modulate to another key, the vast amount of times its using the diminished / augmented trick.

Go on, tell me im wrong, i know your dieing to. "

Heh heh...I can't say I'm *dying* to tell anyone they're wrong, but if the shoe fits...

When you say, "the vast amount of times", most people will take that to mean "most of the time" or "in most instances."  If that is what you mean, then the statement is not true.  It may be true for a certain kind of music or true for certain people but, in general, the statement doesn't hold up for all music.  I've studied mostly Baroque and Classical music; the most common means of modulation that I've seen is pivot chord - where the chord retains its spelling (no enharmonic re-spelling) but changes its function (e.g. Dm is ii in C and vi in F).  That is not to say that other means of modulation don't occur - including the way you're referring to:-)

Well seeing as i havent studied EVERY PIECE OF MUSIC EVER WRITTEN.. i dont suppose i can say "most" times...

i dont have a clue about the statistics of people using this trick to modulate...

and neither do you, i dont think ANYONE knows what actually is used more...

So by me saying most, i meant it is used quite a bit, which i know it is cos i have seen it in quite a few pieces of music i have studied.

Why did such a big deal get made of this...

I gave a use of the augmented/diminished chord because someone wanted to know..

and because i said "most of the time" instead of "occasionaly" or "is used a bit"... you just took my words and spun it into this..

My only point was about what the chords CAN do!!!

And you had to argue about "how often these chords are used" When that is not the issue at hand.

If you want to pick up on little irrelivent details and argue to the death that your right..

Just do it to someone who wont get annoyed at it.

"Well seeing as i havent studied EVERY PIECE OF MUSIC EVER WRITTEN.. i dont suppose i can say "most" times... "

Exactly my point.  Nothing got "spun" except your rhetoric.  If you mean "sometimes" or "occassionally", then say it!  Don't say "vast majority."  My aim in correcting you was to clarify the subject for those who are unfamiliar with it.  

Try not to be so reckless with your choice of words.

You don't have to know every piece of music that was ever written to know what is a common modulating technique and what isn't.

Being old and experienced teaches you things that theory doesn't. There are lots of ways that chords can be used, theoretically. But knowing how they are usually used in popular music can simplify things a bit. I don't claim to be an expert on classical theory or classical music. But I do claim to be an expert on how chord progressions work in popular music. That means rock,blues,country,alternative,folk,funk,bluegrass,reggae,etc. I'm also familiar with enough jazz standards to have a good idea about that genre also.

It's not that I think I'm smarter than you or anybody else. It's just that I have paid a lot of attention to this subject for a LONG time.

                http://www.guitarforsongwriters.com

"You don't have to know every piece of music that was ever written to know what is a common modulating technique and what isn't. "

That's true and I'm not really implying that anyone would have to actually know every piece of music to see trends in modulation.  That's absurd.  The argument with Alex_ pertains to making broad statements that don't apply broadly (which you, by your post above, agree with me).  Clear enough?  I have 18 years experience in musical analysis myself and a formal education, and I sure haven't seen or heard every piece of music.  But I, like yourself, have seen enough to speak with some authority on the subject.  

Nit-Picking in its purest form..

This is just getting stupid.

**

Leave it alone now because the barrel is really being scraped.

Wow, this is about the most heated post I've seen in all my time here.  I imagine you both are deep in theory (way more than most of use will ever be) so we can trust you.  Granted, sometimes people take words and get a different meaning out of it.  Even if someone says "most of the time" they could mean half of the time.  Or whatnot.  Many times I've put up chord constructions and made a mistake.  Someone points it out and I go back and modify my original post and say "thanks."  No big deal.

Still, we are talking about chords that are played infrequently in music I know.  I hate augmented chords, actually.  Hopefully, we'll all live through this one and be friends.   ;D

I think it all depends on the context... in classical and popular music, the common use is within key; in jazz they're used both within and between keys, which is what Alex was driving at.

Augmented chords aren't used nearly as often as diminished chords are.  That's for two reasons, I think: first, that diminished chords occur as 'natural harmonies' in more scales than augmented chords, and second, because diminshed chords are fragments of many other chords (like dominant 7ths, 9ths, etc.), and can be used as substitutes for them, while augmented chords are fragments of pretty much just one or two other chords.

The most common method that I've seen used to modulate from one key to another is through dominant 7ths, with the V7 of V used to change keys.  A fairly close second would be a simple movement by step or half-step, with modulations through diminshed chords fairly well behind that, and through augmented chords even farther back in the line.

A lot of it has to do with the kind of music you play and study.  For example, garytalley's assessment of chord changes in practice matches up quite well with my experience, but I'd rate the use of an augmented chord between the I and IV chords as the most common... maybe it's because I haven't charted out hundreds of examples, maybe it's because the charts I usually work with will use that change, but when I read his post, I thought "yeah, I hear that a lot".

All theory is just a framework for practical expression.  If the music Alex hears and plays tends to modulate on these chords, then that's a great use for him.  On the other hand, it's not a full representation of common practice in all styles.

In the end, all theoretical topics are (or should be, in my opinion) just a means to an end... if it helps you understand how to produce the sound you want, keep it, and if not, either ignore it or file it away for future review.  Keep in mind that if you talk to other musicians about theory, they have a different experience and foundation than you do, and it's best to avoid things like 'always' 'never' and 'most of the time', because they may just apply to YOUR world, and not the wider horizons out there.

Thank you NoteBoat, i really do understand what you are saying..

i dont know why i said "most of the time", because i dont have a clue... it was the way i phrased the sentance, i was taught what these chords are most commonly used for.. and i took that as true and just passed on what i had learnt.

I never meant it statistically.

My aim was to tell what the chord was used for, and bad phrasing of words was an irrelivant detail.

I agree with corbind, lets just leave it here.

*****

Hey cor, dont you like the sound of augmented chords?

i suppose playing one randomly might sound horrible, tell me what you think of this chord sequence...

B | D#m | D#m+ | E | F# | F#+ | Em | D#m | C#m | B

i know its not strictly diatonic before anyone points that out, but i like the sound of aug chords after the normal chord before its augmented.

B | D#m | D#m+ | E

I love this part. It sounds better (to me anyway) like this:

| B | D#m D#m+ | E

as a passing chord, I guess.

alex - how do you play the d#m+ in that last piece - come to that, how do you play any augmented minor? from the table Helgi did near the start of this piece (lovely bit of work, Helgi, you should post that on the beginner's forum - with that and the table in "theory without tears" it's possible to work out almost any chord) i can see that an augmented is the root note, the third and the flattened fifth - so would a minor augmented be the root, flattened third and flattened 5th? I haven't got round to Dave's article on augmented and diminished chords yet - am going to check it out RIGHT NOW!!!

drat - just noticed that the augmented is a sharpened 5th, not flattened - question should now read, is an augmented minor root,flat 3rd,sharp 5th? no wonder it sounded so godawful when i tried it!  ???