I just don't get it.... help

and of course those sunglass guys are what happens when you leave out the space between 8 and )

yeah that took me a while to figure out, i just thought you felt 'cool'

lol, just kidding.

So my example is the correct way of thinking and applying modes in a melody/harmony way?

i always thought that was wrong, and i had missed out loads of stuff, i thought someone would correct me how i'd gone wrong or something.

But hey, im happy now if i understand it.

Now thats theoretically, now the next step is the application which i will leave up to my imagination.

Thanx tom!

lol - I thought you were just trying to emphasize how cool each scale is.

Just to let you know, it's starting to click!  Thanks so much, Tom and Alex.  

Thats good, i just want another go at seeing how this comes out as an explaination.

A B C D E F G A (A Aeolian / Natural Minor)

over (A minor chord progression)

A min (i), Bdim, (ii), Emin (v), A min (i)

Will bring out the Aeolian mode (natural minor)

C D E F G A B C (C Ionian / Major)

over C major chord progression

Cmaj (i), Dmin (ii) Gmaj (V), Cmaj (i)

Will bring out the Ionian mode sound

Those two have the chords allready in their scale's perfectly so it isnt really a clash of notes that make the modes, because they are normal major and minor scales.

but now like..

*************

*i have written out the full notes of the chords where there is a different note in the chords thats not in the scale*

G A B C D E F G (G mixolydian)

over a G major chord progression.

Gmaj (i), Amin (ii), Dmaj (D F# A) (V), Gmaj (i)

The note F# clashes, and the flat F in the scale melody thats played does not sound right and brings this mixolydian mode feeling

**********

E F G A B C D E (E Phrygian)

over an E minor chord progression

Em (i), F#dim (F# A C) (ii), Bmin (B D F#) (v), Em (i)

The note F# appears twice in that chord progression and every flat F played there sounds wrong in the melody and brings it its new sound

************

D E F G A B C D (D Dorian)

over a D minor chord progression

Dmin (i), Edim (E G Bb) (ii), Amin (v) Dmin (i)

The Bb in the chord clashes with the natural B in the melody thus not making it sound like the D minor scale (that should go over the D minor chord progression), but this is the Dorian mode going over the minor progression

*******

You need to remmember what NoteBoat said about what modes are major and minor.

Ionain
Lydian
Mixolydian - Major

Dorian
Phrygian
Aeolian - Minor

and its the same note's chord progression you play under those scales to bring out the extra sound

*

Do you understand everything about the 3 minor scales, because your question was about the modes and the minor scales, are you ok with the harmonic, melodic and natural (that noteboat gave the detailed history with the monks and things?)

And, did my post help anything else to click, Its really good to re-read then things you just understood help other things to click

- Alex.

E F G A B C D E (E Phrygian)

over an E minor chord progression

Em (i), F#dim (F# A C) (ii), Bmin (B D F#) (v), Em (i)

The note F# appears twice in that chord progression and every flat F played there sounds wrong in the melody and brings it its new sound

***************

D E F G A B C D (D Dorian)

over a D minor chord progression

Dmin (i), Edim (E G Bb) (ii), Amin (v) Dmin (i)

The Bb in the chord clashes with the natural B in the melody thus not making it sound like the D minor scale (that should go over the D minor chord progression), but this is the Dorian mode going over the minor progression

**********

These are strange examples - you're playing dorian and phrygian modes over an aoelian (or natural minor) progression. The conflicting notes would probably make it sound terrible (to my ears anyway).

Modes make more sense if you use the chord tones first and foremost, and then add the notes from the mode.

For instance (and let's start with a non-diatonic progression just for fun):

E C A Am

I just pulled this progression out of an old song. The melody is in E, but the progression also uses C and Am (C from the parallel minor and Am as a passing chord, I assume, but it doesn't really matter).

Now how are you going to play over this? I don't know what you think. How would I play over this? I'll show you.

First, get the chord tones from each chord.

E G# B
C E G
A C# E
A C E

Instead, we can either (1) stick to just the chord tones for each chord (arpeggios, which should sound alright), (2) use the chord tones with our own passing notes (if you're adventurous), or (3) find a mode for each chord that uses the chord tones.

(Note: Option 4 is to blend them all into one giant E-bluesish scale to play over the progression, but that would probably sound silly).

Where were we? Ah yep.

(3) find a mode for each chord that uses the chord tones.

This way, we can use any of the "major" modes over a major chord and "minor" over a minor chord (ie E ionian over E, C lydian over C, A mixolydian over A, A dorian over Am) because each contains the chord tones of the underlying chord or harmony. You have to be careful how you use them though, but it takes practice.

And remember that your modes aren't limited to the major scale - there are also modes of the harmonic and melodic minors, and the harmonic major (major with 6 flattened). Depending on the "flavour" you want, you can try whatever notes you like.

Just remember to use at least some (at least one) of the chord tones. This is why I deliberately used a non-diatonic progression as the example - playing diatonically over a I-vi-ii-V sounds good, but then it's easy to forget about the music and just play a single major pentatonic for hours without putting any thought into it.

It gets confusing (at least I think it does) when you work with b5 (tritone) subs, so I'll leave it up to someone more qualified to field that.

Of course, this is all just how I would do things. Feel free to tell me where to stick my information if you don't like it (*coughcough*Helgi*coughcough*).

Well all what i explained has been gone over in this post before... there is  a picture on the previous page of an example i posted..

where i have played a D# Phrygian melody over a D# natural minor chord progression..

and..
NoteBoat:
-
Your D# phrygian is a good example of the concept.   It's just tough to articulate sometimes.

and i asked if you can play a melody of a certain scale, and have a normal progression underneath it..

And NoteBoat agreed when i asked, that it is the playing of these 'wrong' notes that essentially bring out the sound of the mode.

If you use chords with notes that exactly match the melody its just going to blend it in more with the scale, making it sound more normal, and less, well modal.

you can do like..

E F G A B C D E

over...

Em (E G B) Am (A C E) G (G B D)

and then you have to avoid playing...

ii, v, vii because these all contain an F# which will clash with the natural F's.

**

Please someone more experienced with me tell me if im wrong because i thought i was wrong in this way till some people agreed with me.

I am going with NoteBoat's post after my example i posted, because what i have learnt (from various places and from him) matches.

So now i just tried to help purple by putting it in the way that helped me click, hoping it would for him too.

- Alex.

There will be some modal notes that don't 'fit' a normal progression.

There are two ways to work with this: first, you can alter the harmony so the notes work (which I think is what Argus is leading towards).  That's certainly acceptable, and leads to different progressions.

The second way is to let the chips fall where they may, accept the dissonance, and try to use the dissonant tones so they're more or less passing tones.

Either of those two routes will lead you to some sounds that are unfamiliar.  That's the whole point: the modal tones aren't what your ear is expecting, based on the familiar major scale pattern.  The #4 of the Lydian mode will give it some jazzy characteristics, the b7 of the mixolydian will invoke some blues feel, etc.

In the end, it's about what you have to say with the music, not the scale or mode you use.  If you express yourself well with the instrument, all sorts of dissonances work.  If you don't express yourself well, having all the harmonic elements line up won't help much.

yeah thats true..

i mean i came up with the progression's i was using in sibelius and played a melody (random one) with naturals in it.

and then i copied it all and turned the F's into F#'s so it was a natural minor (not Phrygian) and i played it a few times and listened to it..

and the second one fitted perfectly (natural minor, how its meant to be)

and i played the ones with the natural F's and they where dissonant, and it was EXACTLY what i wanted.

it was kinda a sharp kinda weird, hard to describe but its music but "dark" feel, kinda like creepy house on a haunted hill with lightning around feel.

And thats exactly the sound i wanted.. so im glad thats a perfect way of using it, even if it wasnt i still would have used it no matter what anyone said, but i would much rather know that thats not what other people think and i know what im doing different.

Another way i saw was to take the IV and V chords of the scale your taking the mode from and put the root of the mode in the bass

(This was in Frank Gambale's Modes No More Mystery)

for instance

C Phrygian (taken from Ab major)

IV = Db
V = Eb

Db major / C... C Db F A
Eb major / C...C Eb G Bb (Cmin7)

and that works well too, you get a kinda minor sound and a kind of dissonant good sound when your playing the C and Db together which is only a semitone apart.

Just as long as i know every way i have mentioned is a perfectly acceptable and widely understood way of using modes and im not going to get told "it should be done another way because your way isnt normal"

... I am happy :)

- Alex.

Every time I have tried to post this, my internet goes down.. here goes nothing...

Am I going to be quized on all this material later.  Give me time to study up.  I have re read these posts and I think i am going to be dreaming Phyrigian, Dorian, natural minor, 5 6 7 smiley face monks drinkin wine hitting wrong notes, accidentally.

I do believe I understand about the different minor scales.  They are basically different "keys" or scales to play in.  The natural minor came about as a mode of a major scale.  The melodic minor and harmonic were created for sound reasons.  And I can chose the minor I want the song to be in.  Do I pass this part?  Let me get back to you on all this modal stuff.  i am going to re re read.

You pass this part, Purple :)

There are two ways to work with this: first, you can alter the harmony so the notes work (which I think is what Argus is leading towards).  That's certainly acceptable, and leads to different progressions.

What I meant was you can add the "outside" modal notes to the basic chord tones at your own discretion to come up with a different sound. Not completely different (since it contains the chord tones which act as a kind of skeleton), but different enough to make you sit up and take notice.

For instance, the "C" mode of F harmonic major laid over the bVI in the key of E minor (which is a C). It contains C E and G, but it doesn't sound too Cmajorish (or Eminorish for that matter) since it also includes F, A, Db and Bb (where 3 of those don't fit the E harmonic minor key and 2 don't fit C major).

Let's put that chord into a fairly common minor progression: bVI V7 i

In Em that's C B7 Em.

For a B7 you could shove a B lydian b7 over it, and E harmonic minor or something like that over the Em just for the sake of not being weird (or relieving the tension, whatever).

I'm not sure if that's what you meant, but it's what I was trying to say. It's all about experimentation and expressiveness.

(Edit: I think Mr T just about sums it all up)

Virtually all melodies contain non-chordal tones, and a heck of a lot of them use non-scale tones (chromatic runs, passing notes, etc.).  The thing about modal playing is that you really can't establish a mode over a single chord, or even a change of two chords.  You're playing in a mode when you're there long enough to establish the tonal center, and play enough notes to give the mode it's shape -- if you're only playing two or three notes of it, it may be a tetrachord or other fragment, but it's not a mode.

If you're going to 'shove a B lydian b7 over it', you may be introducing new melodic material, but you're not playing modal music.

I never said it was modal music, just that you can use modes that way.

The thing about modal playing is that you really can't establish a mode over a single chord, or even a change of two chords.  

Eh?  As far as I know, it's exactly the opposite.  Hang onto Em long enough while you play the C major scale over it and you establish E Phrygian, but as soon as you get a chord progression going, Ionian tends to take over.  

In the same way, playing a C major melody over Dm would sound Dorian and over a G major chord, Mixolydian.

That's why "modal music" tends to a dronelike quality.  Lot's of hanging around on a single chord to establish it as the key centre.
You're playing in a mode when you're there long enough to establish the tonal center, and play enough notes to give the mode it's shape -- if you're only playing two or three notes of it, it may be a tetrachord or other fragment, but it's not a mode.

Now this I agree with.

In the same way, playing a C major melody over Dm would sound Dorian and over a G major chord, Mixolydian.

We're mixing up modes and harmony here.  By definition, a C major melody is in C major - it has C as its tonal center.  

Modes are a melodic construction, not a harmonic one.  You can change the mood of a melody by changing the harmonization, but that doesn't change the melody into a mode.