Technique at higher volumes

Wes, Demo (what's your real name by the way?) and everyone else who'd played live a lot,

Going with the comment on "if you're good you're better and if you're bad you're worse" when it comes to volume, do you guys find somethings are easier to play with a loud amp? I've cranked my DSL up a few times, and on speed picking runs, for example,, which I have spend a long time (probably too long) developing and pefecting my technique and muting for, I notice that I don't have to work half as hard with the volume up a decent level; you relax and get that wonderful feeling that happens (rarely) when everything is lined up pefectly and the sucker almost plays itself :)

I haven't experimented that much with feedback, but that whole "riding the wave thing" does sound like fun. unfortunately, I just relocated and now have four roomates, so maybe this weekend I can give it a shot.

Best,
Matt

Rick here :)

Yah I've noticed that too, but there's still kind of a balance; like if it's too loud I tend to pick more gently, which throws things off, and if it's too soft, I try to compensate by picking harder. There's this optimum middle ground, but again, you really have to find it *while* playing at a good stage volume.

And...it doesn't take long; maybe halfway into the first song or something and you get the pick-pressure, strum-strength, amp-volume tweaks straightened out, but once you get in that 'zone,' you can play all night pretty much; no sore wrists and hand cramps. Everything nice and relaxed like it should be :)

RE: the 'wave': Yah, and since most of my playing and recording now is done through a POD/Mixer/Headphones, I miss that live feedbacky sort of sound. Makes me want to form a rock band again just to hear it. I mean I REALLY miss it sometimes!

Nice to meet you Rick!

Where are you located, maybe we can destroy our hearing together :lol: Thanks for your comments

I think you are on to something. it is so rare that I can crank it up into the high numbers. when I do I kind of suck, because I find my self working it too much...like I do at my neighbor friendly volumes.
to be able to practice at high volumes would be a nice break.

BTW. Pete Townsend said it wasnt the loud amp volumes at concerts that blew out his ears.
he said it was the high volume with headphones on. he spent more hours in the studio than on stage.
he worries about all the headphone Ipodders now.

a future deaf society.
better learn sigh language.

Here is a PERFECT example of a tube amp cranked to high volume, Stevie Ray Vaughn playing Voodoo Chile. :twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GSpbuFSr2o

I like the modern distortion boxes, but none of them can compare to a guitar amp cranked up to high volume. Stevie did use a Tubescreamer, but he kept Gain at minimum and just used it for a volume boost. Man, listen to the sustain on these notes.

If you listen you will hear lots of bad noises, that's just part of playing a tube amp at high volume. It is part of the music. You learn to control it and mix it in with your playing... if it feedbacks, you ride it out.... You use your hands and fingers to make incredible sounds.

Get used to playing like this and you will throw all those Metal distortion boxes away. :wink:

It is a little scary to play super loud at first, but once you let go, it's pretty amazing.

That is a great clip, I've heard that DVD is good overall. I've been meaning to pick up the Montreaux DVD for both SRV and the Dixie Dregs. Maybe I'll get that one instead, even though the production isn't as great.

Hate to say it, but SRV blows Hendrix out of the water on that one, IMHO

BTW. Pete Townsend said it wasnt the loud amp volumes at concerts that blew out his ears.
he said it was the high volume with headphones on. he spent more hours in the studio than on stage.
he worries about all the headphone Ipodders now.

I agree completely with this, I cannot stand to listen to loud music in headphones. I guess it is just too concentrated and directional. I find it to be painful.

I have been playing very loud for many years, but I always get very good results on our annual hearing tests at work, much better than most. No hearing problems at all.

Matt- Yeah, that is a great clip. But the point I was trying to make is that Stevie did not use distortion pedals for his great tone. The Tubescreamer was used as a pre-amp boost. But his distortion was natural tube amp distortion. You just can't beat it. I have always thought that distortion pedals sound very artificial (and I use them). Some sound great, I love my ProCo Rat and Danelectro Daddy-O, but I keep the gain way down. With natural overdrive you can hear the individual strings. It has more color, actually sounds like a music instrument playing. With modern distortions it sounds like you are tearing a piece of paper. :roll:

All these pedals are trying to duplicate the early overdrives of the 50's and 60's. The only way to really get this tone is do what they did. Turn a low wattage tube amp way up. :wink:

It has to be loud.

It was mentioned above, but not enough: Techniques for high gain (often associated with loud volumes), are very different than for low gain situations. In low gain - but still possibly saturated tube outputs - the setup is a lot more forgiving of uneven attack, string noises, microphonics and feedback. In fact, the player will have much more dynamic range control from the fingers in this case. When playing through high gain (distorted and often loud) setups, playing actually has to be a bit cleaner, more precise and string muting becomes extremely critical for controlling unwanted noise, feedback and note durations.

In any case, if one will be playing electric live either with low or high gain at loud volumes, it is probably best NOT to practice electric unplugged, as you are almost guaranteed to be overplaying and not developing good higher gain/ higher volume technique. Rick's (Demo's) suggestion of using a headphone amp for electric practice is excellent advice. For flexibility, I recommend the Korg Pandora PX4 in one of its variants. The preprogrammed patches cover a wide variety of gain situations, and can help one develop good touch and muting techniques for each.

Rick's (Demo's) suggestion of using a headphone amp for electric practice is excellent advice. For flexibility, I recommend the Korg Pandora PX4 in one of its variants. The preprogrammed patches cover a wide variety of gain situations, and can help one develop good touch and muting techniques for each.

I was actually going to take that suggestion up; but now I am worried about hearing loss from too much loud noise thorugh headphones. I guess moderation is the key .. headphones even at moderate volumes are probably much better to hear everything that's going on.

I think its said that if you listen to <40 % of max. volume on your headphones/ipod etc., then it should be fine for your ears.

I am all the time listening to music through my mp3 cd player and playing the guitar along with it.I find it a great way to practice along.

Just keep the volume till ur ears support.You don't have to rock yourself with the grooves.Headphones are a great invention for preventing the outside world from music addicted junkies...

Rock On.:wink:

Rick's (Demo's) suggestion of using a headphone amp for electric practice is excellent advice. For flexibility, I recommend the Korg Pandora PX4 in one of its variants. The preprogrammed patches cover a wide variety of gain situations, and can help one develop good touch and muting techniques for each.

I was actually going to take that suggestion up; but now I am worried about hearing loss from too much loud noise thorugh headphones. I guess moderation is the key .. headphones even at moderate volumes are probably much better to hear everything that's going on.

You will be practicing using a high gain model, which tends to bring out all the low level noises and dirt in your playing. This is not necessarily the same as listening at a high volume level. High gain and high volume are stylistically often associated, but they do not have to be. It is somewhat akin to using an attenuator on an amp power stage: turn everything up in the preamp stages (gain), but lower the overall volume level at the last stage. The sonic quality will be somewhat similar (ignoring some psycho-acoustic differences) and good enough to refine your technique.

With mine, I have it at pretty comfortable (low) listening level, but I also don't use effects. It's in the clean setting because I 'want' to hear all the little burps and squeaks, off-notes and notes that just die (from lifting a finger too soon or accidentally touching it with the pick) and having sustain, distortion and reverb would sort of defeat that purpose.

Then, when I'm playing loud through an amp, on stage, I know my technique won't be sloppy and I can have confidence to just play what I want.

To me, it's an electric guitar through the headphones, but i's sort of...Ultra-Acoustic because with it clean like that, I can hear all my mistakes, stop and work on the sloppy things, then continue. I even use it with my bass: I hear all sorts of string noise and choked-off notes and even too-much-fingernail type clicking sounds and then either work on proper shifting technique, keeping fingers down until I really 'mean' to lift them, or just taking out the nail file and sandpaper :)

Best regards.

You will be practicing using a high gain model, which tends to bring out all the low level noises and dirt in your playing. This is not necessarily the same as listening at a high volume level.

I understand .. I was just thinking that with headphones, better watch the volume...
With mine, I have it at pretty comfortable (low) listening level, but I also don't use effects. It's in the clean setting because I 'want' to hear all the little burps and squeaks, off-notes and notes that just die (from lifting a finger too soon or accidentally touching it with the pick) and having sustain, distortion and reverb would sort of defeat that purpose

I hardly ever listen through headphones except when trying to record. I'll start listening more through headphones with my AD30VT (which has headphone output and both clean and very distorted amp models) to see how well I hear more differences. I can believe it will be a lot clearer, because it will shut out all the external sounds..

BTW. Pete Townsend said it wasnt the loud amp volumes at concerts that blew out his ears.
he said it was the high volume with headphones on. he spent more hours in the studio than on stage.
he worries about all the headphone Ipodders now.

a future deaf society.
better learn sigh language.

Too true, I was left ringing after I was forced to listen to my playing through headphones. Especially bad seeing as they dont work too well with heavy distortion on high notes.

We'll soon have a generation of deaf people I'm sure. I'm certainly sure my hearing isn't all that great.

Gnease,

You're talking about this:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Toneworks-Pandora-PX4D-Personal-MultiEffect-Processor?sku=152176

or these, correct?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/home/navigation?d=tp&q=headphone+amp&r=&src ="00630"

I have a relatively elaborate headphone setup due to my living situation. It goes Guitar - loop pedal - amp. Into the amp's aux in I have a metronome and the mix goes to wireless headphones with independant volume control. My question is, could I get the same effect by cranking the amp's volume up a little ways (it is a crappy 15 watt modeling amp, which may pose problems in and of itself, but let's assume it works out ok...:) ) and then lowering the headphone volume to a comfortable level on the headphones? The Toneworks pandora looks great, since it emulates feedback and whatnot, but if I can get a live playing feel with my current setup, then I 'll save the hundred+ dollars and buy a wah :D

Wes, sorry didn't mean to change the subject, that was a good point you made via the clip. I agree with you about the distortion types, poweramp overdrive is excellent. I saw Kenny Wayne Shepherd recently, and he uses a similar setup as SRV: Fender amps with two stacked tube screamers. What a great, singing tone :D

That is a great clip, I've heard that DVD is good overall. I've been meaning to pick up the Montreaux DVD for both SRV and the Dixie Dregs. Maybe I'll get that one instead, even though the production isn't as great.

Hate to say it, but SRV blows Hendrix out of the water on that one, IMHO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epFM8Fe_WDc&mode=related&search=