https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/ Guitar Noise Discussion Board en-US Thu, 04 Jun 2026 03:08:56 +0000 wpForo 60 https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/paged/2/#post-371342 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:21:36 +0000
My post about electronic music being done by one guy/etc...is what I meant as balanced against what you (and I) are trying to do. When a human is that far out of the equation, (as in electronic stuff) it worries me. I gotta admit that Chris is juggling all the right stuff in the air and working on getting better...and he certainly is...but it's still "him" and not a machine doing all the juggling. Nothing wrong with that approach, either. I do the same thing ALL the time...EXCEPT...when I'm sure I've gotten somewhere good and saleable...I ALWAYS redo it with old friends that can play circles around anything I can do!

Again...as per this thread..."band relations"...ya gotta work with someone you won't wipe the beer bottle off with your shirtfront before you take a chug out of it, yourself...

...or say "so what" about your new grandchild.

That's pretty much my slant on band relations!

Cat]]> Opinions and Polls Cat https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/paged/2/#post-371342 https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/paged/2/#post-371338 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 06:06:12 +0000
On top of that, commercials/jingles are actually more demanding than pop songs, I think. It's like writing haiku - you've got a really limited amount of time to make an impression. That kind of tight focus in the work you've done sure won't hurt your chances.

I'm working on a similarly outrageous goal of my own... I want to write a symphony and have it performed by a major ensemble. It's a huge task, so I gave myself 15 years. I roughed that out at 4 years for really learning how to do it right, 8 years for the actual composition (I figure I might need to write 3 or 4 to have one that's good enough) and the last three getting it on somebody''s performance calendar.

I'm closing on one year into the project. And I'm having a blast doing it - really studying scores of the masters and taking apart their counterpoint and orchestration is sometimes intimidating, but I can feel what I write is getting better.

Ya gotta have big goals. Without them, you won't live any longer (and you'll end up living less while you're busy with little ones!)]]> Opinions and Polls NoteBoat https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/paged/2/#post-371338 https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/paged/2/#post-371333 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:59:24 +0000
What you're saying can't be faulted. When yer right, yer right. And, YES...I have been lucky. I see what's going on not just with my friends, but with the world, in general. Really, all ya have are your friends. And they are so by choice. (Basically, you are stuck with your family! :? )

But maybe I've misled everyone. We're NOT a band...we're an associated bunch of musicians that have heaps of other things going on for decades...'cept when we get together for a project...99% of that being commercials. Even doing this, some particpate, some don't, it depends upon who brought in the client. But that's done. Now we're doing something devoid of any other motive (money, whatever)...a Grammy! The whole idea got some laughing up their sleeves...probably many reading this post, too! :lol: ...but, one by one, the penny dropped. Why not??? Nobody plays any better than we do...pick any platinum you want. However, Note Boat...all the stuff you outlined could bring this thing to grief! This is quite true :shock:. So we're leaning into the "fun" side of it...and fun goes rather well with friendship. Oddly enough, only our singer (a gal) is new to everyone and we are still finding out how she gets along with everybody...so, yeah, big dittos to your view...and YES, I'm a bit paranoid about this new dynamic worrying about everything other than the singing, per se...like how "the wives" like a young gal entering the mix!!! :(

Ya can't hitch oxen to a plow each facing opposite directions and expect to get a row started, let alone done. Friends put up with you despite yourself...family because they have to. There's a difference...

So I hope "Pipe Dreams" comes off well! A rather appropriate name for this project!

And, hey...great set of posts, everyone!

Cat]]> Opinions and Polls Cat https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/paged/2/#post-371333 https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371326 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:16:46 +0000
I've known bands who were friends. I've just never known a band made of friends who were able to make music more than a hobby.

The reason I split the leadership thing into three parts is that one part (the stage leader) is visible. I've never seen any band break up because the bass player wanted to front the band, or the singer wanted out of the limelight. But every band that I've seen break up - every last one, the ones I've been in, the ones my friends have been in, and the ones my son has now been in... well, they broke up for reasons of music or money.

On the money side, you've got a solution to the easy part: the distribution. I haven't seen a band break up over distribution, only over input - the ambition side. If the guy who seizes the business role can't negotiate or doesn't know the market, his mates won't like working for $45 when they could have gotten $200. If the one in the business role won't give it up (and I've seen that happen a lot), the ambitious ones leave.

On the music side, I've known a few leaders who thought they were modern day Mozarts. It's fine if you want to craft your own thing - go be Alan Parsons (or the Johnny Doe Orchestra). But that's not really a band, it's a vanity project.

The fair and square part of your comments strikes me, though. That's how real leadership operates. It doesn't have to be an even split or a fair division of the work... it has to be honest communication. That's what holds a band together.

But I sort of see the communication as the symptom, and the leadership as the cause. I've been with bands, and known people who've been with bands, that were doomed because of communication, and nobody (even the communicator) really knew it. The musical leader who can see everyone's faults but his own, or the business leader who procrastinates and loses opportunities - they'll always be able to justify their behavior.

The world is full of dreamers who want to go places. I've often heard people say that it's so hard to make a living in music, but I haven't found that to be true. It's just a puzzle to be solved. But it's not going to solve itself. A lot of people who say they want to be successful are waiting for the music fairy to step out of the wings and bless them... but they'd feel funny saying that, or maybe that's how they believe it really happens. So you'll get situations where the communication isn't honest, and they don't even know.

Most of the bands I've been in fell apart over lack of ambition. But that's rarely obvious. You'll find bands that rehearse two or three or four times a week that say "we'll start gigging when we're ready". But they've been rehearsing for two years. They imagine themselves to be working hard at their craft. They can't see that the craft they're honing is rehearsing, not performing.

About ten years ago I answered an ad in the Illinois Entertainer, auditioned, and joined a band. Decent musicians, nice guys, said they really wanted to work. I started getting us gigs. Then one night I couldn't make a rehearsal, because I had a gig as a sideman... the singer got upset, and questioned my "commitment to the band". But I was the only full time musician in the band - I had to question their commitment to their stated goal, making money making music. I wasn't blowing off a gig, but they weren't making much money, and I have to feed my family. I can't permanently reserve two to four nights a week to "get ready" if you rarely play. I left.

Two years later I ran into one of the guys in the band. They'd been through three other guitarists after me, and he complained that nobody had any work ethic, how hard it was to find people with commitment, etc. Total number of gigs they'd done since I left: zero. Total rehearsals: over a hundred. I asked why they hadn't done any gigs, and the answer was "we need to be ready, and nobody stays long enough."

I think they really believe they're hard working musicians. What I think they really are is a pretty good basement band afraid to take a stage.]]> Opinions and Polls NoteBoat https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371326 https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371325 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 14:48:40 +0000
I agree with TR and CNev: Friends Rule!!!

Cat]]> Opinions and Polls Cat https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371325 https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371317 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 10:04:41 +0000
It's one of the toughest things in the world to get a group of people together to do just about anything under the sun. Most times it's like herding cats...so everyone's reticence is understood. But I guess I've been lucky.

No, not lucky...just fair and square. What do I mean? Ya treat your friends right, that's all. That ain't too hard for anybody to comprehend, is it? I can tell you that you'll go through life and...if yer lucky...count your best mates on just one hand. (I'm 60.)

We've all pretty much retired, meaning we've just begun "to do other things". Still, we've decided to do something exciting, fun and downright interesting: we're chasing after a Grammy. We've set aside the issue of money and have turned decidedly toward pure aesthetics...pure good time balls to the wall rock. Although I wrote the material (as usual since...geez...the mid-70's)...the copyright's being split evenly. We've ALWAYS worked like this. At first we tried setting up an incorporated business in The States. That was too weird for a bunch of hippies, especially since I moved to Oz and someone else moved to French Polynesia. So? Easy...we just started to split up the copyrights...leaving each to his own as far as taxes and whatnot goes. That took the heat out of functioniong like "corporate suits" and getting our heads together each tax time. Sharing out what we made...AND "who did what" came easy after that bleedin' obvious brainstorm.

Do you think an "even steven partner" will work till he drops to get something done? Yep, you betcha! Friendships are always based on trust...meaning you can make technical screwups that'll only get someone to lean on you to say: "That really stinks!" The same for life mode screwups, too (like my recent marriage demise) that have them say: "Yep. You really screwed up this time...but I'm still in your corner, Buddy!!"

There's a Calabrese expression that translates: "Only your friend can tell you your feet smell!"

Crap! Who wants a world of music devoid of friends?

Cat
(or should I say Catanzaro, Calabria!)]]> Opinions and Polls Cat https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371317 https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371309 Tue, 27 Dec 2011 23:17:44 +0000
:roll:

Such occurrences are exceptional. I've never seen it firsthand, except within rhythm sections between bassists & drummers. We all yearn for that kind of closeness, but mostly we must compromise, and when we do we have a choice to make. Which is more important, the music or the relationships? Really, though, there is no "duality" ("Robotic churn outs of standards...or needing to work together in all regards"). There are lots of ways to do a band. In my most recent band I had a brother-to-brother relationship with my drummer (heaven for a bass player!), a so-so kinda-friendship with the lead guitarist, and very little in common with the rhythm guitarist/vocalist. It was fine. I didn't hate being with them on a long drive to a gig. The music was satisfying (75 percent originals). Even so, it was a business deal, and I knew that if I became a liability they'd ease me out of the group. It kept me sharp.

For me, making bad music with good friends endangers the friendship. I care too much about the music.]]> Opinions and Polls Crow https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371309 https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371276 Tue, 27 Dec 2011 00:43:07 +0000 listener in this role, provided they have enough musical understanding to know how to make problem spots better.)

If you want to have fun and play once in a while, find people you like with the same goals. If you want to play a lot and get paid for it, you'll either put up with people you don't like, or you'll end up running the band your way, and hiring the people you want. I really don't see any other viable choices. (Pardon the paraphrasing!)

You are spot on with the first bit...but I dunno about the second...should I feel "as the odd man, out" that since the mid-70's I've worked with people that are pretty much my brothers??? Before logging onto GN I looked over all our various FB posts. Geez, we're getting OLD! Our kids are now where we used to be. Another marriage done...the first prostate to be hacked out...and another grandchild. This is all cool...

I can see one side of your argument..."play a lot and get paid for it". Like a band leader that hires in the needed help...and "so what" about someone having their first grandchild. But the other side of the argument is pretty much based on the fact that another set of people aren't reading off of cheats...they aren't second class citizens: they're writing and publishing. So I do think there's that duality. Robotic churn outs of standards...or needing to work together in all regards...

Besides...borrowing your drummer's condo in Papeété is something your band leader wouldn't see happening...because he doesn't have one! Ask yourself "why"???

Only friends can do that, Matey. :wink:

Cat]]> Opinions and Polls Cat https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371276 https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371269 Mon, 26 Dec 2011 14:31:13 +0000
That doesn't mean a band should have a dictator (except when it does - I'll get to that in a minute). A successful band actually needs three leaders, and the three roles can be filled by different people:

- a musical leader. When everyone is coming up with ideas for songs, setlists, arrangements, etc., decisions need to be made. The most capable musician should be the musical leader, and the others need to trust his/her judgment. (By most capable musician, I mean the one who is most capable of making good decisions in that area, not the one who's a virtuoso. Great instrumentalists can overshadow arrangements with ego; you want the best listener in this role, provided they have enough musical understanding to know how to make problem spots better.)

- a business leader. Somebody needs to take responsibility for handling the details of negotiation, booking, sending press kits, budgeting, managing the band's funds etc. This person doesn't need to do all the work, but they do need to make sure all the work gets done.

- a stage leader, or 'front man'. This is the public leader of the band, who might actually have no leadership say off stage. It's often the vocalist, just because they're a natural focus for the fans. This person will handle the banter between tunes, and will look like they're directing the flow of the set, even though that's been established by the musical leader.

One person can handle all three roles. But the bands I've seen fall apart usually do so because the one person handling the roles shouldn't be doing one or more of them. If the vocalist makes the best choices for arrangements, great. If he or she doesn't, but insists on musical control, the better musicians will leave. Same thing with business management.

The one place where dictators succeed: wedding/society bands. In that area, band leaders are often essentially one-man-shops (there may be one woman shops out there too, but in my market they're exclusively male). They've got the social connections to get good paying gigs, the musical skills to arrange the needed music for the least number of players, and the business chops to get a fair wage for the gig. In that area, there's the leader.... and there's the sidemen. The band comes together for only one night. The next night the lineup can be completely different.

These bands don't stay the same, but in a way they do - that Johnny Doe Orchestra may have been gigging steadily for 20 years, even though Johnny Doe is the only one who's worked every gig. The musicianship is almost always top-notch; these are the best sight readers in the area, the musicians with the biggest ears, and the ones who can put on a convincing show with little or no rehearsal. The leaders can be (and often are) complete jerks, and will always have total control. But they always get the work, because they can provide great musicians. And the great musicians will always play with them, because they'll have some of the best paying gigs around.

Looking at the other end of the spectrum, I've known bands who have stayed together for years without much to show in the way of success: the bands where members really, really like each other. These groups are often pretty functional as democracies because of their group dynamics. They're also often dysfunctional (from a career standpoint) because the comaraderie dictates the musical and business decisions. Like they say, a camel is a horse designed by committee.

If you want to have fun and play once in a while, find people you like with the same goals. If you want to play a lot and get paid for it, you'll either put up with people you don't like, or you'll end up running the band your way, and hiring the people you want. I really don't see any other viable choices.]]> Opinions and Polls NoteBoat https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371269 https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371265 Mon, 26 Dec 2011 10:06:22 +0000
Look at today's computer generated music. I don't like it. It's un-interesting, bland, innane, repetitive and impossible to recall to memory as soon as it's (thankfully) over.

Why? Because one person does it all.

Everything...nobody there to take a new tangent, to put their talents into it (be it limited or grandiose)...or to make an in-house critique. What "post production" is there, anyway? It's all done by one guy. It ain't even in the least bit interesting...

I've coined...and use...a new genre: Muso Verité...real people, in other words.

Band relations???

It's EVERYTHING!!!

Suggested reading: "An Intimate Life Of Paul McCartney" by Howard Sounes.

Cat]]> Opinions and Polls Cat https://guitarnoise.forum/opinions-and-polls/band-relations/#post-371265