Jimi Hendrix

Vic -
I agree.
Jimi was a trendsetter in other areas besides guitar playing.

And I really can't come up with anyone from that time that played a strat.
So you might be right about that as well.
Although, Clapton... when asked if he picked up playing a strat from Jimi at first said Yes.
Then said that he more than likely decided to go with the strat sound because Steve Winwood played one all the time.
(And still does)

As far as Hank Marvin of The Shadows goes - Wasn't he a HUGE influence on British Guitarists????
I've heard quite a few great guitarists mention HM as one of their main influences.
The Great Paul Kossoff comes to mind. (Who played LP's)

One thing I have to ask of you Vic, is to please refrain from saying that Jimi played a white strat all the time.
Yes, He played that beautiful Olympic White Strat at Woodstock.
And so now countless (Drawn & Painted) images depict him with a white strat.
That was far from his guitar of choice though.
He had a rather large collection of Strats from Manny's.
In the early days, he's usually seen with a 3 color burst strat.
For the most part though, I think I've seen more (real) pictures of Jimi with a Black Maple board Strat.
Which I always thought a rather odd juxtaposition (in the literate or painting sense of the word);
Jimi always wearing such colorful clothes and having a Black guitar.

Anyway - As far as comparing Jimi to those shredders....
For me, Great tone is what I'm mostly drawn to.
This is why in my posts I'm always harping about tone wood combinations and lacquer paint and all tube amps with broken
in speakers.
I keep hearing all kinds of stuff on this forum about hot pups and effects pedals and other extraneous non-sense.
It seems to me that most people don't realize that (even on electric) guitars - Great Tone starts with the acoustics of the
basic guitar.
Everything else just amplifies and colors that basic acoustic 'foundation'.
If you don't have a good acoustic sound to begin with - no amount of electronic gadgetry is going to give you good tone.

That all being said - My favorite player is Peter Green.
Great tone.
Highly skilled guitar player????
NO!!!!
B.B. King
Highly skilled????
Maybe.
Fast and flashy.... NEVER!!!!

All those shredders mentioned here have lousy tone. (For me, read - No Soul)
Do I like that kind of music????
No.
Still, there are bands out there that have all the elements I like - except I can't stand their tone.
Therefore - I don't listen to them.
SRV - I think was a great player.
Couldn't stand his tone most of the time.
He did have great guitars and amps though - and he played the blues.... which is the style of music I like.
So, I could tolerate him more than the shredders.

There was an earlier post on this topic I believe where someone put forth the notion that musicians don't put emotion(s)
into their music - that it's up to the listener.
I'm afraid that I have to disagree with that.
I can pick up my acoustic guitar and play Neil Young's 'Expecting To Fly' or Tim Buckley's 'Once I Was' and not put any emotion into it and have people say that it was nice and that I sang it (although monotone) in key at least.
Or I can play them with so much emotion and connectivity that I have tears in my eyes when I'm done.
And at the end of those performances people are spellbound.

I don't get that from any shredders music at all.
In fact - I would rather listen to B.B. King hit the e string on the 19th fret just once, than to listen to ALL of these shredders
catalogues combined.
Anything that they've done or will do in the future put together don't have the emotional impact that B.B. has with just that one B note.

That's the power that Jimi tapped into.
And that's why he will always be better than them.

Ken

lol it's funny, Vic. I was just coming here to make that same post- Pointing out how Jimi made strats a "trend." Clapton always used SGs, but he just had to switch to the Strat because it was the new thing. I'm sure he realized how much better it sounded too(opinion, of course).
For the most part though, I think I've seen more (real) pictures of Jimi with a Black Maple board Strat.
Which I always thought a rather odd juxtaposition (in the literate or painting sense of the word);
Jimi always wearing such colorful clothes and having a Black guitar.
Lol. Does seem kinda weird...when you think of it. That black guitar was Jimi's favorite.
Anyway - As far as comparing Jimi to those shredders....
For me, Great tone is what I'm mostly drawn to.
This is why in my posts I'm always harping about tone wood combinations and lacquer paint and all tube amps with broken
in speakers.
I keep hearing all kinds of stuff on this forum about hot pups and effects pedals and other extraneous non-sense.
Well, of course tone comes from the fingers, and a great guitar helps too. But effects can help with well...effects. It's all in the fingers though.
I don't get that from any shredders music at all.
In fact - I would rather listen to B.B. King hit the e string on the 19th fret just once, than to listen to ALL of these shredders
catalogues combined.
Anything that they've done or will do in the future put together don't have the emotional impact that B.B. has with just that one B note.

That's the power that Jimi tapped into.
And that's why he will always be better than them.
Very well said. I would too.

I think Hank Marvin was the pioneer of the Strat Sound. Here is a list at wiki of the guitarists he inspired. To me, it appears 'very' impressive.

The Shadows were a great group and backed up Cliff Richard wonderfully. (Check out 'Devil Woman'.)

Off topic, but just felt like saying, since CitizerNoir mentioned HM. And actually I feel, HM oozed great style out of those big glasses. :wink:

Rahul - Cool.
Thankx for the wiki info. :D

As far as the strat influence goes....
I thought about it, and the reasons that Clapton switched from Gibbo's to Fenders.

He (Clapton) claimed either Jimi or Winwood were the reasons.
Although, the 2 main reasons that Clapton walked away from Cream (other than the EGO probs), were that he thought
like everyone else that he was the greatest guitar player ever.
You could see how cocky Clapton got in the Cream days.
Then Jimi burst onto the scene.
And Clapton realized that he wasn't quite all that.
You can see the huge change in his look from the early Cream days (cocky rockstar) to the later Cream days (deflated ego).
So I'm sure Clapton realized that he could never best Jimi, and sort of gave up on that whole Guitar God thing.
I don't think that Clapton has yet recovered from that blow to his ego or of seeing what can truly be done by a truly great
guitarist. (Jimi)

It was at that time (1967-68 ) that the Band came out with 'Big Pink'.
Clapton was very moved by it, and decided that was the direction he wanted to move musically.
Robbie Robertson was the guitarist from The Band and played Fenders (Teles and Strats).

Blind Faith was suppose to be Clapton's version of The Band. (It didn't quite work out that way though)
In the early Blind Faith incarnation, Clapton fitted what appears to be about a 60 tele deluxe body with the neck off of
'Brownie' (the June of '56 2 color burst strat he played on the Layla album).
He was still playing thru his twin Marshall stack rig from the Cream days with that.

His next band, Derek and the Dominos had him go to the strat with a fender amp as well. (1970)
This would be the band that Clapton would get closest to the sound of 'The Band' with.
(He also used Brownie in his first solo album between B.F. and D. & The D's. - 69????)

He would play strats exclusively from there on out.
And, like Les Pauls thru Marshalls (Clapton in the Bluesbreakers 65-66),
I believe it was he (Clapton) that actually set the precedent for the strat as well as using low watt tube amps in the studio to
get that BIG sound. (He used a 5 watt wide panel Tweed Champ amp on the Layla album).
And so now, thankx to Mr. Clapton - Fender Tweed amps are outrageously priced. (That's okay, 50's Gibbo amps sound
better at 1/2 the price :wink: )

And let's (that's Let Us Vic - :wink: ) not forget that Jimi's 'dream' guitar was always a Flying V.
And that he DID actually switch to one late in his career. (Which in my opinion, muddied up his sound something awful -
I find him very hard to listen to in the Flying V days. Very abrassive to my ear).

I have no doubt that Jimi was a major factor in the re-emergence of the strat.
It all comes down to Icons really, as far as that goes.
After his death, Jimi became an Iconic figure, often labeled as the greatest guitarist ever and with ALL of the images
of him playing a strat - sure.... lots of people were influenced by that.
Just as the back of the Layla album has JUST a strat as an Icon.
I'm sure just as many people were influenced by that image to buy a strat as well.

As to Jimi's songwriting....
I LOVE HIS LYRICS!!!!
So vivid. So Beautiful. So Sublime (as was his playing).

"Footsteps dressed in red"
It doesn't get ANY better than that.
So simple, yet the picture it paints in your mind is just beyond bliss.
And because of it's vivid, yet vague beauty - it can mean many things to many people.
So - Very Universal as well.

I have noticed that Many people on this forum tend to like lyrics that spell EVERYTHING out for them.
I myself can't stand that.
I don't even like novels that are like that. (or movies for that matter)
It's insulting to my intelligence - not to mention questions the artistic ability of the writer to not be 'poetic' enough to come
up with a shorter, clever way of getting their point across.

In my opinion, Jimi's lyrics are on a different plane than ANY posted here (as well as my own).
Just like his playing is formated in the blues - yet transcends those restrictions all at the same time.
Something that - no matter how good Clapton got, he knew he could never do.

Ken

I have to agree with Ken about tone. Probably one of the reasons I do not like all these famous shredders is the horrible tone (in my personal opinion) that they use. Sounds like they are playing a kazoo to me. Far too much distortion, compression and delay. Take away all that distortion, compression and delay and these players sound very different. They are still fantastic guitar players, but I don't think their playing would be so awe inspiring.

But that would be true of Jimi as well. He depended on an amp pushed to max saturation, feedback was a huge part of his sound.

But for me, I love the tone of a super pushed tube amp. I do not like this overly processed guitar tones that the shredders use. Doesn't even sound like a guitar to me. If you want to sound like a violin or synthesizer, then play a violin or synthesizer. :roll:

Hendrix had huge dynamics in his playing, as did SRV. They could play at a whisper and then crank out huge overdriven tones. These shredders with their overly compressed tone have very little dynamics in their playing. I'm sorry, not trying to be offensive, but their tone is extremely boring to listen to.

But I understand everybody likes different tones. I am kinda old school, I like the original electric guitar tones that naturally overdrove when the amp was cranked. Those are still my favorite guitar tones.

But another thing about the shredders is that you get the impression that they are simply trying to impress you with their skills. The music seems secondary. Sorry, but that is sincerely what I get from listening to them.

On the other hand, while Hendrix was a tremendous showman, he still comes across as very humble. Listen to any interview and that really comes across. Once on the Dick Cavett Show (very popular talk show), Dick said Jimi was the greatest guitar player in the world. Jimi immediately said he was a very sloppy player who could not compare to many other greats. He also said he hated hearing that type of comment, "maybe I'm the greatest guitar player sitting in this chair RIGHT NOW" he said. So Jimi was a showman, but extremely humble. He did not consider himself a great player.

But Jimi was all about the music. In his later appearences he had done away with all the showmanship. You can see by that video of Machine Gun that he simply stood on stage and played. That early stuff (burning his guitar for example) was a reaction to other groups like The Who who smashed their gear on stage. I think he was pushed by his recording company into a lot of that stuff. You will not see those kinds of performances near the end of his career. But he was genuinely trying to capture sounds that literally painted a picture of the song he was performing. He was not trying to show off at all.

And this is a big reason why Hendrix has remained popular. He was humble. Everybody likes someone like this, while on the other hand, nobody likes a showoff.

Ken, yeah, I know Jimi played other guitars - it's just that the image of him I always conjure up in my minds eye is Jimi playing a white Strat, it's sort of BURNED into my brain...it's THE iconic image of him....

Rahul, I'm NOT knocking Hank - I KNOW he was a huge influence on a lot of people, but you'd have had to have been around in the sixties to understand what I was getting and, although I wasn't even a teenager when Hendrix came on the scene, I'd been a fan of r'n'r and pop music since I was about 5....

By the time Hendrix came around, the Strat wasn't used by many rock guitarists....most people associated it with Hank and his twangy, tremolo tone. Hank (and Cliff) were NOT cool back in those days....hell, anyone your parents (in their 30's and past it!) thought of as a "nice young man" was TOTALLY UNCOOL by definition....the sixties was a time of rebellion and change.

So, because Hank wasn't cool, the Strat - by association - became uncool. Hendrix totally repopularised it....Ken's right, he did of course use many other guitars, but as I say, Hendrix was probably the coolest person on the planet back then so the Strat suddenly became the must-have guitar.

I seem to remember Clapton using a red Gibson (ES335?) a lot in the Cream days....Harrison had his Gretsch, Lennon his Epiphone and Rickenbacker....but until Hendrix came along there weren't many serious rock musicians who used a Strat, at least not in the UK.

:D :D :D

Vic

Wes - Playing a kazoo!!!! LOL!!!! :lol:
Yeah - that's about it as far as I hear it too.
I like old guitars plugged straight into old amps.
That's the 'sound' of electric guitars to me as well.

And yeah, Jimi used effects - He also had a pretty clean backing track though (studio wise).
Live - he used effects a bit more, always in good taste though.
Like compare Status Quo's 'Pictures of Matchstick Men' with any of Jimi's recordings.
Both psychedelic - one remains part of 1967 - while Jimi's are still visionary.
As much as I don't like effects, even whammy bars, because MOST people OVERUSE them....
Jimi had a natural way of using effects.... They actually 'fit' into his compositions.

Vic - Yeah, that white strat IS the ICONIC image of Jimi isn't it....
I'm just touchy about that because MY main guitar is an Olympic White W/Maple board strat that Jimi in NO WAY influenced.
LOL

Although I don't really think that Rahul's post was ripping on ya at all Vic.
I think he was just saying that in his opinion those influenced by HM were pretty cool players, some might not agree.

I'm interested in your opinion on HM and the Shadows. (Vic)
As I said, I've read that a lot of great players were influenced by HM. (My Hero Koss for one)
Now, what you say about him makes perfect sense.
Odd.
History is always like that though.
There was a great Northern Exposure episode that said something to the effect that as far as history goes -
The facts stay the same, the truth is constantly shifting though.
(ex. - The facts about Custer, always the same. The changing truth - At first a hero, now a villain.)

As far as EC's Cream era guitars go:
He was most famous for playing the Fool painted 61 SG.
Also had a couple of LPs (including a really cool sunburst standard w/bigsby :D )
And yes, of course his red ES-335. (Usually referred to as his 'Crossroads' ES-335)

Ken

ps - Wes,
Dynamics.... Yes.
That's one of the big reasons that I LOVE Peter Green.
Roy Buchanan wasn't too bad with dynamics either.

And Congrats on your Insanity Status :D

Everybody likes someone like this, while on the other hand, nobody likes a showoff.

There was that thing with the teeth ...

Everybody likes someone like this, while on the other hand, nobody likes a showoff.

There was that thing with the teeth ...
Haaattteeer...

Jimi did that "because it happened." Emotion. Then it got to the point where he was told to do it atleast once a show. I've noticed he did it a lot towards the end of the "Hey Joe" solo, if he did it at all. And later it got to the point where he decided he'd do his own thing, and he did it whenever he wanted to. That's why he always complained about how 'people wanted to hear the old songs' instead of his new stuff.

Obviously Jimi started doing it to put on a good show. But he didn't do it do "show off." He wasn't 'fake' on stage. He was Jimi, emotion came out.

LOL!!!!

Well, I think Wes is right.
Jimi was a very shy and humble person.

That playing with the teeth and behind his back stuff all came from one of Jimi's heros - T-Bone Walker.
Also from Chuck Berry (who got his showmanship from his hero - T-Bone Walker!!!!)

And, before Jimi was the frontman, he paid his dues as a guitarist on the 'chitterling' circuit.
He picked up a lot of showmanship cues from the bands he was in then. (the Isley Brothers for one, Little Richard for another)

And, like Jim Morrison, what at first seemed liberating, became a box to be trapped in.
They both rebelled at the 'circus' acts that they became know as by doing nothing on stage except singing/playing.

Ken

^^Yea. They did great trapped. I was reading a Hendrix interview about a week ago. And he was saying how he wished he could retire. But then he said "then I wouldn't be able to get my message out to the world and I wouldn't be able to turn people on." I'm sure Morrison felt the same.

Sometimes stardom isn't what it's made out to be, just look at Syd Barrett.

I've read a few different interviews with Clapton that says he switched to Strats mostly because of Buddy Guy, not Hendrix or Winwood.

Yeah, that could very well be.

I think Buddy was a stratcat way back then.

Clapton's first strat was Brownie. He bought it in 67 when he was still in Cream.

Ken

EDIT -
I found this in an old guitar player mag -

"I came to the stratocaster kinda late, and I think that was because of Jimi.
He could get more tonal variation out of that instrument than I ever thought possible.
I knew about the Buddy Holly Thin-Bridge-Pickup sound, but I didn't know that it was possible to get the strat to sound
really big, or to get it to feed back in tune - which was very easy to do with a Les Paul.
I realized it was nice to be able to play clean, too.
But I didn't look at moving away from the Les Paul/Marshall combination as 'I'm done with that.'
It was more a case of wanting to try something else.
The strat thing came almost directly from hearing 'Hoodoo Man Blues' by Junior Wells with Buddy Guy.
You could really hear the strat. It was so immediate.
You heard the sound of the wood.
I wanted to pursue that sound."

Haaattteeer...

I am no hater, but haters abound in this thread.

What I don't get is the shredder bashing, as Hendrix had a very strong and obvious influence on players in that genre.

Most of you wouldn't know shred from Shinola.

Probably one of the reasons I do not like all these famous shredders is the horrible tone (in my personal opinion) that they use. Sounds like they are playing a kazoo to me. Far too much distortion, compression and delay.

For the most part, that's very true. Distortion cause it's rock, compression because they tap so much, and delay to make them seem faster than they are.

I had a student 'challenge' me about a month ago with some shredder recording. We put it on, and he says "can you play that fast?"

"That's not fast."

"Yeah, right..."

The 'melody' was three different scale runs back to back. The riff itself was played pick/hammer/tap all the way. The shredder was probably thinking "first I'll play in Dorian..." etc., but the whole thing was in one key - he just started the same major scale from three different spots.

We put a metronome on it, and it was sixteenth notes at just over 100bpm, which is about 6-1/2 notes per second. Figure in the hammer/tap, and it's like picking eighth notes at about 68bpm, well within the range of most of my students - if they spent a couple hours on the hand coordination, they could play that riff tonight.

I play it with the recording, matching the tempo. On an acoustic guitar.

"It doesn't sound as fast when you do it"

A lot of guitar hero-worship, especially with young players boils down to hearing something and saying to yourself "I can't do that - so he must be really good".

Whatever you can't play (or can't figure out how to play) sounds hard. It's easy to confuse mastery with mystery.