technical or emotional?

LOL, and I see your point too.

:lol: well KP that worked out a heck of a lot better than last time we had this discussion.

This has been a fascinating discussion.

When I was younger, in a debate I'd concentrate on trying to improve the defence of 'my' ideas and look for weaknesses in other viewpoints. Now, I try and flip it over and do the same for all sides - because I find that I learn a lot more that way. I might disagree with X's view, but maybe I can learn something useful by exploring why it works for him or her, even if it doesn't for me.

I used to say things like "geez, I hate Country Music" but then I'd think, well, who's missing out here - a lot of people get a lot of pleasure from it. Must be something in it. So I put down my prejudices (snobbery??) and looked a little closer. OK, sure there's some pretty bad Country Music out there, but there's some darn good stuff too. My gain...

One thing that's clear from this discussion is that we all have different emotional responses to different things. And some of us are just more "emotional" than others in all sorts of ways, so it stands to reason that the importance we place on different elements of music will vary too.

I guess have a foot in more than one camp. Here's an example:

When I first bought a CD player to replace the old tapes I set it all up and put on a CD of Wynton Marsalis playing a classical piece. He's a great musician who excels at both classical and jazz playing.

I sat back in my armchair to listen.

What I heard was electrifying. Ater the crummy reproduction of my aging tapes the sound from the CD was astonishly good. Amazing clarity and precision. And Marsalis' playing was just perfection.... absolute perfection.... Within a few bars there were tears of joy trickling down my cheeks.... :oops:

But the interesting thing was that my emotion was as much a response to discovering the technical brilliance of both the equipment and the musician as it was to the emotion of the actual music. :wink:

Anyway, good to read everybody's posts. If nothing else, it's motivated me to work harder on my technique. :P

Good thread Ballybiker - what are you going to do for an encore?? :wink:

Cheers,

Chris

There is such a thing as playing with emotion.

Here are two clips of Jimi Hendrix. First, playing Little Wing live. I would say it's easy to hear that this song conveys a slightly melancholy, and mellow mood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nePm-L0aa-E

And now, playing Fire at Woodstock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EJbpDzFDh8

OK, same player, same techniques. What is the difference?? EMOTION.

Yes, you must have technique to express emotion. Heck, you gotta have technique to play at all. But to deny that some players play with more emotion than others is simple denial.

Actually, I think Yngwie plays with emotion. What do you hear people say about Yngwie? I don't know the guy, he's probably a great fellow. But I hear people say he is conceited and arrogant. Where do they get this from? From his playing! People get the impression that he is showing off all the time, showing everybody how great he is. And I don't fault him for that, you should play your best.

But... people can feel the attitude of the player. If you are showing off, the crowd can sense it.

It's like that video I posted of Kris Kristopherson. He said the reason Johnny Cash was loved worldwide was because people could sense that he loved them as much as they loved Johnny. Now that sounds like a description of emotions to me.

And year after year Jimi Hendrix has won polls as greatest electric guitarist. Did he have the greatest technique? Not really from a technical point of view. But ask anybody what was so great about Hendrix and they will always say he played with more "fire" and "passion" than other guitarists. Again, these are emotional descriptions, not technical.

I would hate to listen to someone just going through the numbers, putting his fingers on the right notes at the right time, someone faking passion. I think I could see through that live.

I dunno. I know I feel emotion when I play. I feel sorry for those who don't.

I'm not finished. :D

This is in response to the clip Arjen provided. Yes, I thought that was a very nice clip and conveyed emotion. The fact that it was all done on computer proves nothing. Because it is the emotion of the person creating a clip like that that comes into account. Take Nine Inch Nails, I happen to like this music. It is almost all done with sequences and synthesizers, but yet it conveys emotion. If I wanted the music to pick up in intensity, I would program faster drum beats with bigger cymbal crashes. I would increase the volume.... Yes, it is all technical, but a person has to realize what creates emotion to imitate it. If it were simply playing by the numbers, the music would be very monotone.

If I wanted the music to pick up in intensity, I would program faster drum beats with bigger cymbal crashes. I would increase the volume.... Yes, it is all technical, but a person has to realize what creates emotion to imitate it.

That's it exactly. An emotional player using technique to create a song. As for Yngwie: if you turn your back towards your audience because you don't think they are worthy to look at your hands it does kinda get you branded ' arrogant' real fast. Literally saying you're the absolute best guitarists that ever existed and will ever exists doesnt' help too much in the humbleness-department either. He simply is arrogant, which may or may not be justified. :D

Anyway, I agree with you in most aspects. The minor differences would be nothing but semantic whining so I'm not even going to bother. ;)

Anyway, I agree with you in most aspects. The minor differences would be nothing but semantic whining so I'm not even going to bother. ;)

I said it before and I'll say it again -- happy don't strum the strings.

You can be happy and play a sad song.
You can be sad and play a happy song.

The idea that what you feel matters is, in my experience, ludicrous in the extreme.

What matters is what you play.

ahhh, but you might decide not to play a happy song if your in a sad mood, and if you did you migh not express that song to your audience as well, maybe thats why sometimes a band is percieved to be having an off night, they might be playing against thier mood. If they had a lot of happy type songs in thier set and they got into a big argument right before the show they might not be in the mood to play "happy" songs.

Scott

King: you misunderstand me. Notes aren't happy like the inkt of a book aren't emotional, I agree with that. I also agree that it is theoretically possible to write down a superb piece of emotional literature without having any emotion. However, in the real world most people do not have the skill or desire to theoretically understand their art to use technique to fake an emotion because that is simply a lot of work. Instead, most people just use whatever they feel and go with that, hoping that the audience picks it up. This is what Wes means (I think!) and I also agree with that. By far the majority of people simply lack the skill to fake emotion.

So while philosphically emotion is not required to evoke an emotional response of the audience most artists do use emotion, or a recollection of one, to decide what technique to use. As such the emotion gets transformed into sound which gets transformed back to emotion in the head of the everyone listening.

Arjen, you put that very well, I think your on to something there :)

Scott

The idea that what you feel matters is, in my experience, ludicrous in the extreme.

<Wistfully> Ah musique, she is such a cold, calculating b**ch.

Arjen

I don't know if it is skill. I am really a "what you see it what you get" kind of person. I really am not about faking my personality or emotions.

But we are close now. Yes, you must have technique. And it is true a person with technique can easily play any emotion on their instrument. But I really doubt this is what most players are doing.

And I agree completely with Scott (sdolsay), I think an audience can pretty easily pick up the mood of a band. I go see bands all the time and try to pick up something from all of them. For a long time I wondered why some bands with great musicians who played with great skill got very little response from the crowd. Other bands who were not so skilled, who made lots of mistakes because it was obvious they didn't practice enough, could work the crowd into a frenzy. I have seen this many times.

Why??

From my experience, the bands that are having lots of fun onstage get the best reaction from the crowd. And this works on me too. I love a band that jokes around and even mouths off a little, as long as they don't go way overboard. There is nothing worse than seeing a band stand there like they are frozen, even if they are playing great music.

Happy does play music. And bad moods play music too.

So, this is emotion. When Hendrix played he jumped all over the stage. Yes, a lot of this was showmanship, but a lot of it was just letting go and letting his emotions show.

But the crowd can sense when a band is in a bad mood too. They can still play the songs note for note, but they will get very poor response.

I am sure you have seen this as well if you see lots of live bands.

All I know is that when I've done the theater band bit, you show up day after day after day and you play the songs right (or get fined!) and you work your butt off to make the audience believe in the song . . . not in the player.

It doesn't matter if you've had the worst day of your life or the best. It doesn't matter what the song is. You play what you're suppossed to play and you knock it out of the park every night -- cuase if you don't, the musical director has a dozen other guitarists willing to work just as hard or harder.

I understand what Wes is saying to some extent. For a bar band being able to connect to an audience is an important skill to possess. And to do that you have to be genuine. If you're a quite person, you can't jump around and try and pretend you're full of energy. If you're normally somber you can't try and be funny. You have to be who you are -- and let that show through what you're doing -- or the audience just won't buy it.

But at the same time, you MUST play the tunes the way the tunes need to be played. If you're playing a funeral you have to make the music sound sad even if your girlfriend just agreed to marry you ten minutes prior . . .

i really lit the fuse on this bomb :oops:

i'm new to music but my inspiration to pick up the guitar came from one piece of music...one song touched me so much that i just had to learn it...it triggered something in my soul...i didn't really understand the whole meaning of the song at the time but the emotion was there as clear as day

the song?

Johnny Cash's cover of 'HURT'

a song so full of remorse and sorrow...the Trent Reznor original is cool enough...a song about regrets and drug addiction...it certainly touches the emotions of any heroin addict but not the world

then Cash picked up on it

the difference?

Cash was terminally ill and his wife had not long died....he had regrets and felt remorse...the emotion is there and for all to hear

same song different artist....it was enough to inspire a forty something like me to begin the journey into musicianship

ok the song got an extra push from some tv advertising...but the tv guys were quick to pick it up...why?

they knew it would grab the viewer..

if you get the chance to listen to any of Cash's last recordings...most were covers...you can hear and feel the emotion...by far his best work was made while he was at an emotional peak

ok as an encore....only 8 months in and i've gone public....people ACTUALLY like my stuff....technically poor/naive/average etc

i lack timing...i lack a powerful singing voice....but people are loving my stuff...why???/

emotion/feeling/soul

give it some feeling and it touches the heart...there endeth the lesson 8)

http://www.myspace.com/ballybiker

i sincerely hope it will inspire everyone beginning to go for it...be lennon...be hendrix...BE YOU!!!

Thankx ballybiker, that was very well said.

I haven't talked to you since you said hi when I joined.
I did reply to you in that 'hello' thread.
I don't know if you saw it....?

I went to your site back when you went public.
I really dug it.
Especially your Hurt take.
Very Good!!!!

I really admired your ease with space in your music.
I read somewhere on this forum, someone said that overplaying was a sure sign of a novice.
(Was that you Wes????)
You had plenty of silences in there that I really took to.
Your style is great.

Very Emotional

Ken