https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/ Guitar Noise Discussion Board en-US Thu, 04 Jun 2026 12:47:27 +0000 wpForo 60 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-124645 Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:07:25 +0000
The editor I mentioned is for something other than songwriting, (this is the only place I post songs for critiquing), but I'm finding that having to be more concise in my other writing is benefitting my songwriting, as well, so I thought the suggestions might be helpful for Angel and anyone else who has so many great thoughts and phrases in their head.

You're right, the initial writing should be free. The rules come in after, if need be. But if you have a clear understanding of basic songwriting (like you mentioned) then structure becomes something you don't have to think about, and you can just write what you're feeling.

Anyway, sorry for rambling too. Happy writing, everyone.

Joe]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Joe https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-124645 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-124264 Sun, 11 Sep 2005 18:11:41 +0000
I tried to think about the songwriting process, and how I go about writing a song - the short answer is "I haven't a clue!!!" So I thought back to some of the songs I've written on here, what's gone into them, and tried to "reverse-engineer" them, so to speak....

Generally, I get a line or a phrase, and work on that....more often than not, it's a fairly obvious hook to hang the rest of the song on...

I'll hum it to myself and probably strum a couple of chords....or work out a melody line on the keyboard...

Then it's a question of turning the line into a couplet, and turning a couplet into four or six lines depending on whether it's going to be a chorus or a verse and depending on format...

Then it's just a question of expanding the theme, trying to find relevant imagery, and working out the chords I'm going to use....

Then play it through, edit, revise until satisfied...

It's a bit like a sunday roast dinner really, start with the meat....the hook or basic theme of the song....add the potatoes....the verses or chorus...some vegetables for a little colour....throw in some imagery....then if I can get some nice chords and a melody to go with it, well - that's all gravy!!!!

That's the way I tend to work anyway... I know, it sounds pretty simple, but that's just how it works for me....

I've also found out than when I've finished the first draft of a song that I'm pleased with, it very rarely needs any major changes, just a little fine tuning, a few tweaks here and there.....

I suppose I'm just lucky that way....

One of the first things I did when I started writing songs for the SSG was to read Nick's articles on songwriting...although they probably work for about 99% of people, I just can't be tied down with rules and guidelines - I just can't write that way, I have to be inspired by a good subject, and I have to FEEl something for the subject....if I have to think too deeply about a song it feels, well, forced....

I have delibarately tried from time to time to vary my style of songwriting - the whole point of this forum, after all, is to experiment..... but I still find that the best songs I come up with tend to be when I'm writing as me....

I hope this sheds a little light on the subject, I seem to be rambling a little... but it's a HUGE subject to cover in one post....

:D :D :D

Vic]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Vic Lewis VL https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-124264 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123946 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:20:29 +0000
my method have a couple of beers and go for it :wink:

this could be why Bluenight Angel writes far better songs then I do

mmm there might be something in there ???

get me another beers love I have a song to write :D :D :D :D

cheers ( ha ha ) :roll:

hilch :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:]]> Sunday Songwriters Group BarnaBus RoX https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123946 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123943 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:35:07 +0000 I can tell you from experience that it helps to edit other people's work and have one person (not several) reciprocate, preferably someone who knows her stuff. It's easy to edit her stuff because you're not as close to it, and seeing her edits to your own stuff might at first put you on the defensive, but when you make the corrections you'll see how much better it sounds, and eventually you'll start to do this as you write. And I find it works with any kind of writing. Articles, fiction, songs, whatever.

Joe That is SO true Joe! :D

As you suggest, most professional writers (even well known authors) work with an editor. "On the defensive" probably only hints at how you feel when somebody first "tampers" with your precious words!!!!! :shock:

When I get overly wordy (which is pretty much always) I have an exercise that seems to help. I write a 'letter to the editor' of our National newspaper. Being our number 1 national paper mean that they can pick and choose between a lot of letters, so it really helps if you can nail a good succinct style when you write AND write something that might be topical or eye-catching in some way.

So I edit and re-edit, and then polish it again until it says something reasonably zingy in one or two sentences. There are then two objectives: a) To get it published ,but b) to get it in without the sub-editor cutting or changing it (which they just love to do - it's their job after all...). With this technique I have managed to achieve about an 80% success rate. Had I not been ruthless with the re-writes it would probably be about 10% printed, if any. The practice I've had with that sort of ruthless reappraisal process then seems to pay off in other writing. :)]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Chris C https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123943 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123715 Fri, 09 Sep 2005 20:09:01 +0000
I can tell you from experience that it helps to edit other people's work and have one person (not several) reciprocate, preferably someone who knows her stuff. It's easy to edit her stuff because you're not as close to it, and seeing her edits to your own stuff might at first put you on the defensive, but when you make the corrections you'll see how much better it sounds, and eventually you'll start to do this as you write. And I find it works with any kind of writing. Articles, fiction, songs, whatever.

The great thing about songwriting as opposed to writing novels is instant gratification, since even when you're on, it can still take several months to see "The End," while you could produce an entire song, music and all, sometimes in under an hour. The downside is, you only have twenty or so lines to tell your story, and fewer places to stick all those clever lines.

Joe]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Joe https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123715 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123686 Fri, 09 Sep 2005 17:25:30 +0000 then I try to follow "the books" or the teacher and then it becomes hugely harder exactly;)

as for old writings making you blush... I do know that feeling... some of my earlier stuff is really... er... never mind, glad I can see some development at least.

thanks for the kind words and trying to help- always appreciated :D
'writers write' -definitely. I'll try hard to stick with writing(and it's so much fun after all :lol: ).

cheers,
bluenightangel]]> Sunday Songwriters Group straycat. https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123686 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123529 Fri, 09 Sep 2005 03:07:55 +0000 sorry for rambling, I'm not sure this was any help. well, I tried. I dunno how to describe it, it's changing all the time and for the most part it's nothing I can do on purpose :wink: Thanks for taking the time to share how you do it. :) I have the same struggle with the "nothing I can do on purpose" thing - particularly with guitar playing. When I just "let it happen" it feels good, and some of it sounds pretty OK. I can also "hear" just how all the bits that don't quite make it should sound if I'd nailed it right. It's always a mixture of intent and discovery, which is what makes it such fun.

But then I try to follow "the books" or the teacher and then it becomes hugely harder, and plods along at a frustratingly dismal rate... :(

But I know that to get better I need to acquire more technique, more discipline, and more structure. The trick seems to be to gain the extra control without losing the freedom (if that makes sense!!)
if you're suggesting that I don't always chuck out what needs to be chucked out, then, yes, that could be true, but it's coz I'm not distant enough to judge objectively and it's like my brain is a tangle of ideas, once I pull at one end, many others will follow and they all go different directions- I do chuck out a lot, but there's still so many things I like and I know that most of the stuff in the fragments file will never be turned into something(although I managed to use some of those pieces already). I think we're all still developing as writers - that's why we come here. I don't think that you in particular need to chuck stuff out, any more than the rest of us do (but I know it's always an issue for me, with whatever I write).

When I was at school I was quite intense about poetry for a while, to the point where I won prizes for it. A couple of months ago I found a pair of sonnets that had won the annual school prize. Some of was OK, but other parts caused me to blush and laugh at the same time (not at all the intended effect!! :oops: ). I couldn't help wondering where I would have got to if I'd stuck with that kind of writing.

The only reason I've posted all this chatter is that you really do seem to have talent with your words and the potential to go on from good to REALLY good. :D I just wish I could put my finger on what the next steps might be, rather than just waffle on.... :? Never mind, just trying to be helpful... :wink:

Perhaps it boils down to the old thing about the more one writes the better one gets? The most succinct advice I ever read was "Writers write"! :D]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Chris C https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123529 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123361 Thu, 08 Sep 2005 17:48:10 +0000
'share how I do it'? chris, that's difficult, as it's always changing...
well, let me try.... (be warned, this will take a lot of space)

#1 I either start by writing down a line or just a word that's been popping up in my head(or that I've been reading somewhere) and of which I like the sound/meaning/whatev or by thinking about something that inspires me(e.g. a SSG assignment, a song that has an interesting sentiment, whatever). I often note some quick thoughts when doing something other than concentrating on writing, because they just pop up and I want to remember them. sometimes I go back and try to turn them into something or if I can't, put them in my 'fragments' file on the PC(no shoebox, but the same purpose)- and sometimes I just forget about the little bill or ticket where I wrote it on, coz I don't always carry a notebook with me(although I do have one especially for this... also note SSG assignments there)
so let's assume I write for SSG. I have a topic, if it doesn't make me think of something right away I try research, but usually I start with whatever comes to mind first.

#2 I scribble down random lines, sometimes already thinking about a pattern, sometimes not at all, sometimes even with a melody in my head and singing along. almost always have some places where I have more than one option of how it could be like.

#3 I reread, try to replace over-used words/phrases, try to decide for one option, try to find out if the lines are in the right order

#4 if I like it, then I'm mostly done here, if I'm not quite satisfied I either let it be for a few days and then come back to it or open a new file and put the one with the draft next to it. then I take the first line, if I like it I write it down in the new file, if I don't I try to change it- well basically I go over every piece of it again and compare new and old file.

#5(very seldom, unfortunately) if I have some melody or want to turn this into a song, get my guitar or keyboard and fool around. mostly start by trying to sing it.

sorry for rambling, I'm not sure this was any help. well, I tried. I dunno how to describe it, it's changing all the time and for the most part it's nothing I can do on purpose :wink:
if you're suggesting that I don't always chuck out what needs to be chucked out, then, yes, that could be true, but it's coz I'm not distant enough to judge objectively and it's like my brain is a tangle of ideas, once I pull at one end, many others will follow and they all go different directions- I do chuck out a lot, but there's still so many things I like and I know that most of the stuff in the fragments file will never be turned into something(although I managed to use some of those pieces already).

thx for sharing your way of writing, it's interesting to see how you do it and that you, too, have such a file:)
thanks lotto king;)
cheers,
bluenightangel]]> Sunday Songwriters Group straycat. https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123361 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123044 Wed, 07 Sep 2005 10:18:57 +0000
once again great imaginery and terrific writting in there as well I just fell in love with this verse :

Knowing perfectly well: each sunrise offers a clean slate
An anorexic next to the food plate,
Chances are I might fool myself today,
I mean a food plate, some flesh to my bones, they could use substance
I mean, a clean slate, room for a new tale as mine is getting stale
Maybe I'll accept today, if I can fool myself

second line in this verse made me smile a little ( loved it ) :lol:

well done angel :wink:

take care

cheers

L.K :arrow:]]> Sunday Songwriters Group lotto king https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123044 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123019 Wed, 07 Sep 2005 06:21:20 +0000
Some great imagery there. :D

I really liked the theme of the over-protective benefactor (parent, lover, friend or whatever). All the description in that section were accessible and had some good eye catching phrases.

I stumbled a bit when it came to linking the second part (the food imagery), although I could see just what you meant when I thought about it a bit more.

How do you work when you write? For instance do you try singing it at any stage? I always have trouble trying to sing what you write, as the rhythmic structure is never very obvious.

I don't write regular poetry any more but I do write a lot of prose. Roughly here's what seems to work for me, so I wonder if you can share how you do it?

1. Choose a subject and just "let it out". Write whatever comes into my head. Write for as long as the ideas keep coming.

2. Re-read everything and see what happened. See if the theme or emphasis changed, wandered about, stayed consistent or whatever. Often I can end up with an idea or direction that was quite different to what was expected.

3. Edit. This is the hard part. :twisted: Decide what to keep, what to throw out, what to clarify and what to expand on. Throw out all over-used words and images and replace with something more original, and so on. Be completely ruthless. :shock:

4. Repeat the last steps until satisfied.

5. Write the beginning again. Whether I'm trying to write a poem, a song, a novel or a newspaper article I really need to have a beginning that is eyecatching (ear-catching?). In most cases it needs to either summarise the theme, or at least provide enough of a lead in to give the reader/listener some sense of direction and provide a "hook" to get them to keep going.

A tip I learned from another writer was to keep a "shoebox" for surplus ideas and images. The writer in question literally had an old shoebox. I have a folder on the computer called "shoebox". :)

Every time they had an idea they jotted it down and threw it in the shoebox. Any good stuff that was edited out also got thrown in the shoebox for possible later use - or to just spark up some ideas when they felt uninspired.

It often happens that as a theme develops some of the most cherished images just don't really fit properly any more. The pro chucks them out anyway - and puts them in the shoebox for later use. Many writers here seem to hang on to all their "good bits" even though they no longer quite fit the new direction.

How do you do it? You always have some great ideas, and very good imagery, but I often get the feeling that you stop before you've completely finished the process.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I'm hoping that you can share how you see it? Whenever I read your stuff I think "wow, great idea here, great image there, but...."]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Chris C https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y3week44-retracing-the-past/#post-123019