https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/ Guitar Noise Discussion Board en-US Thu, 04 Jun 2026 07:26:12 +0000 wpForo 60 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369315 Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:09:13 +0000
I like the croaking toad idea 8)
Someday I'll have to put something together using only sounds from the night -
Cicadas, crickets, toads, owls, wolves, etc.

Ken

Edit:

This is the second time I've made reference to Cicada's singing at night....
As far as I know, they don't. When it cools off after the sun goes down, they get quiet.
Maybe on a night with a full moon, otherwise, not really.

So, more than me copping to a repeated mistake, I'm finding that I'm fascinated by my memory overriding known fact.
Why do I keep associating that sound with summer NIGHTS?
Hmmmm....

Ken]]> Sunday Songwriters Group CitiZenNoir https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369315 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369189 Thu, 08 Sep 2011 13:12:26 +0000 Just music. I have no idea for the story as yet, other than the title - Love Song of the Cicada.
I'm thinking the words will have to be yet another abstract love story of sorts.
Although, a loosely structured Jazz thing - A mix of singing/spoken word and exclamation.
I may have something.... I came up with it today. Though not intended for the Cicada song.
We'll see.

Ken Sounds like a interesting idea. Living in the woods, I can almost hear that song go together! Im thinking a irreguler croaking toad as a bassline in my mind though. I envy all you that can "think music" though... I get words all the time, and story ideas, but as of yet the music has eluded me.]]> Sunday Songwriters Group s1120 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369189 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369179 Thu, 08 Sep 2011 03:47:09 +0000 good pop songs pretty amusing, myself.

Chris wrote:
Could you perhaps use that view to work on your cicada idea?

The Cigale song so far is a mass jumble of Jazz Fusion in my head at the moment.
Just music. I have no idea for the story as yet, other than the title - Love Song of the Cicada.
I'm thinking the words will have to be yet another abstract love story of sorts.
Although, a loosely structured Jazz thing - A mix of singing/spoken word and exclamation.
I may have something.... I came up with it today. Though not intended for the Cicada song.
We'll see.

I tried working on the music track a couple days ago - Harder than I remembered! LOL!
I'll keep at it :D

I am intrigued by the Dylan bit though. And I would like to try it out on something, sometime :wink:
I'll let you know :D

Ken]]> Sunday Songwriters Group CitiZenNoir https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369179 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369123 Tue, 06 Sep 2011 03:55:38 +0000 Like, making up a character in a given situation, and then figuring out how to get him out of that situation....? It does sound like regular fiction writing advice/strategy doesn't it. I think Dylan was pretty good at taking things from wherever he saw them and then applying them to his own ends. Could you perhaps use that view to work on your cicada idea?

Also, I wanted to share this with you. It's something that R.E.M.'s Michael Stipe said about songwriting:
Good to read that Stipe was able to take the advice about not getting too precious about being a poet. :)

I get what he says about not wanting to write more pop songs, but I'm not sure that I agree with his take on it being all too easy.

It's really easy to write pop lyrics. It's falling-off-a-log to write a song that everyone can sing along to, with a great melody and with words that are memorable. But there are enough songs like that in the world. And there are a lot of them that I think are incredibly mediocre, and I just don't want to contribute to that. There's certainly more than enough crappy formula pop out there, but there's no shortage of bad pretentious 'poetic' stuff either. I'd say that writing GOOD popular songs is every bit as hard as writing any other style. In fact, it's arguably harder because the ground has already been covered so much, there's a lot of skilled professionals working in the market, and the snorts of derision are so much louder when you fail! :shock: How much safer it is to stay a little obscure and have some 'poetic' cover to hide behind. You're really out on open ground when you write clear, simple and 'obvious' material, and that's not as easy (or as comfortable) as it might look.

I think Nick nailed in in a post he made a long while back. It went something like "If you want to see how to write great lyrics, look no further than Bob Dylan. But if you want to see how to write bad lyrics then.... look no further than Bob Dylan". :wink: I think Bob has written some stinkers too, but because he's Dylan he gets away with it, because there's alway the potential get out of jail clause "It must have a deeper meaning, because it's Dylan....." :D

It's all good fun though... :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Chris]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Chris C https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369123 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369117 Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:19:10 +0000
I've always been fascinated with abstract writers, too :wink:

Springsteen! Love his first album - Greetings From Asbury Park.
He seemed to be making a tremendous effort to write like he thought Dylan wrote.
Fantastic imagery!
It may have seemed rather childish, but it would later serve him well after he refined it a bit more.

Chris wrote:
But a songwriter can keep re-arranging their words and music for as long as they like. Every performance can be sliightly different, and often is. Sometimes it's good to have that freedom I think.

Speaking of, Dylan.... I read something rather recently that he said about songwriting. I'm not quite sure that I grasped it correctly, but what I was getting out of it was, he said something like this - You can come up with an idea, then you have to GET OUT OF IT. Once you get into it, your job is to then get out of it. Otherwise, he went on, you could spend your whole life writing ONE song! lol

Of course, as you said there, Chris, Dylan is always one for changing his lyrics. Especially live (He is a Gemini :wink: )
I found what he said interesting though. To have a mindset of 'getting out' of whatever you got your mind into as soon as possible. That was your job, as a songwriter.
Like, making up a character in a given situation, and then figuring out how to get him out of that situation....?

Also, I wanted to share this with you. It's something that R.E.M.'s Michael Stipe said about songwriting:

You once said that the producer of Lifes Rich Pageant, Don Gehman, caused you to start examining what you called the “cell structure” of what you do, and that it might have been a bit early for that. Were you talking specifically about lyrics? I believe this was in 1986.

Yes, lyrics. He was the first guy who sat me down and, to his credit, said, “You can't just sing about nothing. What is this? This doesn't mean anything to anyone.” He was really challenging me in a way no one had ever done before, about what the songs were about. And I was like (feigns an overly sensitive voice), “I'm a poet, I'm sensitive, I'm shy, leave me alone.” But he made me think about that, and I might have over-thought it. I might have overreached for a couple of records. I think it shut me down, in a way. But I really learned a lot from working with him, and I learned a lot from him sitting me down and not being precious with me, which I think a lot of people were doing.

It finally brought me to a place where I am now, where I can separate thinking about a lyric and really working on a lyric, versus just allowing something to happen and letting it be what it is. That's the conscious versus the unconscious voice. It's really easy to write pop lyrics. It's falling-off-a-log to write a song that everyone can sing along to, with a great melody and with words that are memorable. But there are enough songs like that in the world. And there are a lot of them that I think are incredibly mediocre, and I just don't want to contribute to that. I would rather write something like “E-Bow the Letter” , something that makes no rational sense to anyone, but that has a visceral feeling and a mood that's undeniable. You know what that song is about, even though if you start examining and picking apart the lyric it makes no sense. It's just a “feeling,” versus an essay. I'm not an essayist.

Ken]]> Sunday Songwriters Group CitiZenNoir https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369117 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369104 Mon, 05 Sep 2011 03:27:19 +0000

Here's a few comments on them:
"Fantastic song. I don't think there is any great meaning here. It seems to me that Stipe is trying to create an atmospheric song filled with evocative southern images like tent crusades, old rail lines, church bells. I think the album's title says it all: "Fables of the Reconstruction". No deep meaning behind anything here just Stipes love affair with words and images which continued wholly on to Lifes Rich Pageant. I think he means the album to be like a tattered old book you pick up in a used bookshop. Interesting stories and great illustrations but most of the pages are missing. You have to fill in the blanks and will never have all the answers. Thing is, the mystery is more engaging than the whole story could ever be. This is a great song on a fantastic album."


That's a very interesting point. I tend to write stories whose meaning is pretty explicitly spelled out, but I'm fascinated by the skills of those who write in a more abstract way.

I bought a thick book of Bruce Springsteen songs a while back, partly to look at his lyrics. I'd always thought of him as a guy who tells straightforward stories in most of his songs. but I hadn't really caught all the words. So it was quite a surprise to discover that the particular ones I looked at weren't really laid out like some of the old folk songs, which often told clear and simple stories. Instead they seemed to create the story with a series of small scenes and images. It was very effective, but also left plenty of room for the listener to build their own interpretation. Further down the track are those whose words could mean just about anything and which seem more akin to Jackson Pollock flinging paint at canvas.

Sometimes the latter approach can produce something of lasting value and interest, but it can result in a lot of forgettable crap too. Balancing the words with the right music can make a huge difference as well, so there's never any danger of running out of things that can somehow take off and fly...

Cheers,

Chris]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Chris C https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/paged/2/#post-369104 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/#post-369103 Mon, 05 Sep 2011 03:06:58 +0000 ...snip...

Then - breakthru! I put together the 'Queen' bit with the 'Off with their heads' bit, PLUS the French bit and the cold and mean bit, and came up with:
like the cold blade ready in the guillotine
so high above, can you feel anything
until you fall from your cloudy throne
until you fall and find yourself....

*Of course it was done in a rather subconscious way, which is how I prefer it to work :wink:

Ken Interesting to see how you worked through that Ken. The whole business of choosing to go one way or another, is an endless puzzle. When is a song or a painting "finished"? Some painters have a hard time standing back from the canvas and letting going of it for sale. But a songwriter can keep re-arranging their words and music for as long as they like. Every performance can be sliightly different, and often is. Sometimes it's good to have that freedom I think. :)]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Chris C https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/#post-369103 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/#post-369102 Mon, 05 Sep 2011 02:58:48 +0000
Thanks for taking the time to post all that feedback. :)

I'm not so sure I agree with all that. I mean, you have to know who your audience is, first off. Absolutely. I don't think we're really out of step on this one. At some stage, with any kind writing, it's probably pretty normal to ponder the question of who your audience might be. Are we dreaming about millions of fans or just a handful of appreciative people?

I think of "audience" at the most basic level as a one-on-one thing - as in an audience with the pope/the queen or whoever. Sometimes your only audience will be yourself, but when I write a song, or any kind of crafted writing, I like to assume that at least one person will read/hear it and 'get' something from it. I don't need a stadium full, or a big circulation readership in order to validate the effort. One will do. For me (and I imagine for many of us too) there's a sort of hierarchy of importance when it come to communications. At the top of the pyramid is a single person (I'm thinking friendship/courtship etc) then a small group (dinner party), medium group (house party) pub sized crowd, etc.
What's wrong with hearing someone's personal musical diary? Anais Nin's diaries are some of my favorite reads. Her fiction - not nearly as good.
How about someone like Dylan, or Cohen.... VERY Personal stuff there. I don't think there's anything wrong with reading or hearing diary style material. It's just a somewhat different slant on the process.
I know you don't like The Doors, Chris. But they're one of my favorites :D I don't mind them. In fact I watched a program on them just a couple of nights ago. But they just didn't figure big in my life at the time when they were big. No special reason, I imagine there were others band taking my attention at the time.
'For me, it was never an act, those so-called performances,' he said. 'It was a life-and-death thing -
an attempt to communicate, to involve many people at once in a private world of thought.' "


I think that last bit is really revealing. What it suggests to me is that he was a pretty needy sort of guy. A sort of "more people paying attention is still never quite enough" kind of feel.. But other would see it differently.
Also, I think it's wrong on our part to LUMP different people together as AN AUDIENCE. That's akin to prejudice.
Sure, an audience may have a herd mentality.... But just because one person doesn't like what you do, or understand it,
doesn't mean that EVERYONE will think the same (And then all walk out on you at once! :shock: ) For sure. There's no way that even a very small hand picked audience will all get exactly the same message. The best you can hope for is that most people will get at least something from it. I know that, with any conversation, the message received will never be 100% identical to the one sent - because we're all a bit different. But I do aim to try and make at least some of what I'm trying to say accessible to at least some of the people who may read/hear it. Sometimes I might aim wide, and at other times narrow, but I'm not just beaming random signals out into space - I do want somebody to pick them up and respond in some way. That's what I mean by considering the audience, anyway.

Chris]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Chris C https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/#post-369102 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/#post-369092 Sun, 04 Sep 2011 20:43:24 +0000
I posted a reply to James' notes. In it I mentioned an R.E.M. song - Driver 8.
Basically I said that it didn't make any sense to me, or provide any answers to the bits of info and images it contained....
but that was all okay. It was still a great song anyway.

After I replied here, I decided to look more into the lyrics of Driver 8.
Here's a few comments on them:
"Fantastic song. I don't think there is any great meaning here. It seems to me that Stipe is trying to create an atmospheric song filled with evocative southern images like tent crusades, old rail lines, church bells. I think the album's title says it all: "Fables of the Reconstruction". No deep meaning behind anything here just Stipes love affair with words and images which continued wholly on to Lifes Rich Pageant. I think he means the album to be like a tattered old book you pick up in a used bookshop. Interesting stories and great illustrations but most of the pages are missing. You have to fill in the blanks and will never have all the answers. Thing is, the mystery is more engaging than the whole story could ever be. This is a great song on a fantastic album."

And:
"Wonder what Stipe would say about all this...? Well, I have a recorded interview of Stipe late 80 s- and he basically said, in response to what the meaning of the lyrics are. I'll have to dig it out and transcribe his exact words- but he alluded to college kids who spent hours trying to extrapolate a meaning and asking him what they meant, he said that it was just words and that they just worked--NO DEEP MEANING. I write songs and know what he is saying, sometimes a word or phrase... just works. You get a theme going and there you have it!"

That last one got me thinking about John Lennon purposely writing nonsensical lyrics to give the people looking for hidden meanings in Beatle songs something to keep them busy :P

Looking furthur into I am the Walrus, there's this:
"John was throwing together nonsense lyrics to mess with the heads of scholars trying to dissect The Beatles songs. They also mention that it's John's answer to Bob Dylan's "getting away with murder" style of songwriting. Lennon told Playboy years later that "I can write that crap too," which is rarely mentioned in relation to this song."
From this
http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=138

Upon even furthur investigation I came across an article that started out thusly:
"Last month, I introduced the idea that there are two ways in which words can have meaning: through their literal meaning or dictionary definition (their denotation), and through the associations they bring to mind (their connotations)."

That was enough to put the hook in me and I found the entire article very interesting.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr01/articles/lyric.asp

Ken]]> Sunday Songwriters Group CitiZenNoir https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/#post-369092 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/#post-369090 Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:15:29 +0000 Part II - Word Selection.

Chris wrote:
"What I'm waffling on about is the general issue of word selection. Sometimes a very small change can make all the difference to the mood, even if the literal meaning of the change is fairly insignificant. I was recently reading a songwriter, talking about one of his successful songs, in which he said that one particular word came to him months after he'd written the rest of the song, but that (for him) the difference in nuance was crucial."

Very fascinating topic. Searching for the right word is a very crucial part of writing.
Also, searching for the right structure in which to use those words.

I'll show you the notes for my last song, Distant Isolation, if you like. I chose this one, mostly cos it was readily available.
The notes from my song, Under My Pillow, are by far more telling with the grappling for the right words and phrases. Unfortunately, they're buried somewhere on disk and I'm too lazy to go digging for them :roll:

First Verse:
Still (My Heart) can't believe you're leavin'
keep (hide)(bury) everything well (deep) inside (within) you

The words in () are alternatives.
This is what I went with:
*My Heart can't believe you're leavin'
Hide everything deep inside you



In this one, I not only come up with alternate words, but also alternate lines.
Ex. - dreams still to come
where our love will never fail
through doubt and fear
it still comes to tell my tale

OR

dreams still to come
with the foresight that awaits
I feel forgotten
deep in your heart
decide our fate

Or even swapping the last lines from the first one onto the 2nd one with the change of the last word from tale to fate.

I went with:
Dreams still to come
with the foresight of our fate
your heart forgot me
doubt and fear - I sit and wait
far away - can't see the tears fall from my eyes
not that you care

This verse I struggled with for a long while:

(what's still to come
why wont you tell me anything
out having fun
confusion reigns
with you the queen
until you fall from your cloudy throne
I wait for you - all alone)

you're having fun
off with their heads
cold and mean
so high above, can you feel anything
until you fall from your cloudy throne
until you fall and find yourself....

Then - breakthru! I put together the 'Queen' bit with the 'Off with their heads' bit, PLUS the French bit and the cold and mean bit, and came up with:
like the cold blade ready in the guillotine
so high above, can you feel anything
until you fall from your cloudy throne
until you fall and find yourself....

*Of course it was done in a rather subconscious way, which is how I prefer it to work :wink:

Ken]]> Sunday Songwriters Group CitiZenNoir https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/y9-wk44-chris-c-notes/#post-369090