https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/ Guitar Noise Discussion Board en-US Fri, 05 Jun 2026 07:40:33 +0000 wpForo 60 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295591 Sun, 08 Jun 2008 17:47:20 +0000 Art is not answers or, similarily: "explanation destroys art" (not in the sense that art is ineffective if it needs to be explained, but rather that it is taking the fun out of it to try to fix it to one definite author-intended meaning or having every detail of a piece of art explained/laid out ... well, roland barthes would say "the author is dead", but I'd rather say: art is free to everyone's own way of seeing, which might or might not differ from original intentions) um... rambling... :lol: just read on in the thread a bit, and maybe this comment sums it up: If you put TOO MUCH information into the lyrics.... you kill the listeners imagination. :wink: although too open lyrics might be again difficult to connect with... if you take painting, I don't feel much for too much abstraction, when I see nothing but colours (they can be cool, too, but I like it if I can find a picture in there- even if it's not an intended one). ah, rambling :roll:


straycat. "Explanation destroys art"
Agreed.
And if memory serves me correctly.... Didn't I get all upset with you a while back for explaining one of your pieces that I really dug....? LOL!

I don't think that either of us are inclined to explain our writings.... Offered as art.

On this forum is a different story.

If someone of the general public wants to interpret (or misinterpret) our work.... Fine.
They can choose to like or dislike it.
Whatever.

Here though, people are trying to critique our stuff.... and I think that they deserve to know what the subject matter is,
where it comes from, where it's going, and to some extent; What methods are being employed.

"Too open lyrics might again be difficult to connect with"
Of course....
I totally agree with that.
It has to add up to something.
Though sometimes it can be a series of vivid shots, that together lead up to something.

I don't think I would trim lines down to just one word or just one letter or anything! :wink:
(Though sometimes, one word is all you might need)

Thinking like a photographer; The key to taking color pics is to limit yourself to having just three colors in the shot.
Any more and the shot becomes too 'busy'.
It ends up as a distraction to the 'picture reader'. (Yes, people 'read' pictures, much like they read words - like starting from the top left and working thru it like they are reading it) (Of course, the eye is drawn to the where the 'thirds' cross and things like highlights in the eyes)

Anyway - That's why B&W is so wonderful.... It only has three 'colors' in it at all times.
(Actually, it's just one 'color'; White, and all it's myriad tonalities until it reaches Black)

Of course the three color rule can be broken - IF you are taking a picture of something that is multi-colored,
or if you are taking a picture of just colors.

Back to wordsmithing - I feel that writing is pretty similar.
I would go with a series of short/vivid lines that together add up to a bigger picture over a bunch of lines with too much information in them that ends up losing the context and getting lost along the way.

And that is also where I break from my two writing heros (Kerouac and Ginsberg).
I like to follow their pattern of writing - Except that they both favored really long lines! :roll:
(And that's what people generally find not to their liking about their writings)
Oh well.

Anyway - I just wrote this yesterday after Vic inspired me with his unfinished thread....
I think it sums up my short/vivid theory better than me trying to explain it :wink:

The clean misty morning
the glittering dew
Bends the light into colors
slowly fading the blue
I FEEL LIKE THE SUNRISE
of the first dawn of my life
a new language is spoken
A new vision is mine

Ken]]> Sunday Songwriters Group CitiZenNoir https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295591 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295561 Sun, 08 Jun 2008 09:46:46 +0000 Ken, I like this song and would really like to hear how it is arranged, that way I can get a feel for it. For me the true test of a song, or any piece of art for that matter is how it makes me feel when I'm exposed to it.

Cheers
Paul]]> Sunday Songwriters Group pbee https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295561 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295339 Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:08:32 +0000 Is she not getting enough sleep? :oops: oops.... oh boy, was I confused! so sorry!!! really, how could I :wink:
The last 5% would be the ones who morph the lyrics to mean something to them.... And that's cool! agreed!
Art is not answers or, similarily: "explanation destroys art" (not in the sense that art is ineffective if it needs to be explained, but rather that it is taking the fun out of it to try to fix it to one definite author-intended meaning or having every detail of a piece of art explained/laid out ... well, roland barthes would say "the author is dead", but I'd rather say: art is free to everyone's own way of seeing, which might or might not differ from original intentions) um... rambling... :lol: just read on in the thread a bit, and maybe this comment sums it up: If you put TOO MUCH information into the lyrics.... you kill the listeners imagination. :wink: although too open lyrics might be again difficult to connect with... if you take painting, I don't feel much for too much abstraction, when I see nothing but colours (they can be cool, too, but I like it if I can find a picture in there- even if it's not an intended one). ah, rambling :roll:

also agree to the rhythm of words without actual rhymes, but wouldn't think perfect rhyme schemes are in any way inferior. it's all in how you do it :D so, I'm with both of you, Ken and Vic :)

and I love the "footsteps dressed in red" :wink:

anyhow, it was real fun to read all of your posts!
I feel enlightened :D
cheers,
straycat.]]> Sunday Songwriters Group straycat. https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295339 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295237 Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:48:28 +0000
I used your critique as my examples to discuss a few things that I had on my mind in general about the SSG forum....
I wasn't singling you out though.
I figured if anyone could take it in the spirit intended, it would be you :)

Sorry, I was a student of Aikido for years....
"Ueshiba's goal was to create an art that practitioners could use to defend themselves while also protecting their attacker from injury"

I figured it was safer for me to stay in my own posting than to go around criticising other people's lyrics.
I tried giving a critique once right after I joined GN.... I felt AWFUL afterward :(
If the SSGers read what's here, maybe they'll try to apply some of it.... That was my goal.

I see - You find my Forum Posts to be a bit 'polished' (LOL),
and my songs to be a bit on the, um.... unorthodox side....? :lol:

Don't get me wrong Vic.... I'm not saying that MY way is the ONLY way.
Like I said.... I don't ALWAYS reach that far with my lyrics.

If you like the structured approach, that's fine with me.... There's still a lot of room to stretch out in as far as that goes though.
Ya know.... That's really what I was trying to do with the posts here.... Offer a new kernel to seed and see where it grows.

I know you know about the call and response thing when it comes to Blues Music.... Have you ever considered using it in a lyrical sense before though????
(And I mean NOT in a blues song with the two repeating question lines followed by the answer line).
That provides even MORE structure :D

I mean, if you look at this song as a whole.... the second verse 'reveals' even more about the original....
Still, you're left wondering: Why are these things being revealed to me????
Chorus - Because that's all that I got left.... Just two cups once full of dreams.

Vic wrote - "I'd like to use more imagery in my writing, more poetry, more mystique - but that really isn't me."

I suggest my friend that you don't place such limits on yourself!
No one else here does!

If you want those things.... Go and get them!
Start out slow if you want; just dip your big toe in those waters.... see what happens :wink:

You preface each of those qualities with 'More'....
Here's a secret.... LESS is best!

If you want more of those things, try putting less into your song lines!

That is to say - After you write a line, look at it and figure out what can be cut out of it.
Then, get rid of it.
If it leaves a hole.... think of a SINGLE word that sums all of it up that you need.

I'm going to throw out FOUR words....
My favorite song line ever:
"Footsteps dressed in red"

WOW!!!!
Now that just sets my imagination ON FIRE!!!!
I can visualize a whole scene unfolding from just those four LITTLE words.

What do you think would happen if I wrote that line instead of Jimi and posted it in a song here????
I'd bet it would get slammed!!!!
Whose footsteps????
What are they walking on????
What kind of shoes????
Dressed in a red WHAT????
Is it a boy or a girl????
What color hair do they have????
What color eyes????
What's their skin tone????
I mean I only want to know because, you know, only certain people can get away with wearing red.... that's all.
Where are they going????
Where are they COMING FROM!...?
What time is it????
Come on, how can FOOTSTEPS be dressed at all!

As the songwriter, you know what my answer to all of those questions are????
YOU TELL ME THE ANSWERS!
What do YOU see????

I promise you, everyone will see something different.

If you put TOO MUCH information into the lyrics.... you kill the listeners imagination.

The more open ended you leave it.... more people can say they relate to it; Because then they can insert themselves into the lyrics and interpret it to taylor fit thier own life.

Anyway - I'm not saying that you hated the lyrics.... I know it's not for everyone. (Kathy :wink: )
And I'm not saying that I have this 'style' all down perfect either.
But I'm not going to get it unless I keep reaching for it.

Thankx everyone for your patience 8)

Ken]]> Sunday Songwriters Group CitiZenNoir https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295237 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295214 Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:00:10 +0000 Vic does too.
I've read his posts after he's drunk . . a few brews.]]> Sunday Songwriters Group KR2 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295214 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295208 Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:32:07 +0000
Actually, I think I understand Ken the songwriter a little better now, as opposed to CitiZenNoir the forum contributor - which will possibly give me a deeper insight into future lyrics.

I'm not one of those people who can write in an unstructured manner - I prefer to have a beginning middle and end, usually in the right order. Point taken about Dylan/Lennon, but those guys worked a long time at their craft before they started working with more cryptic lyrics. Maybe Lennon's a bad example there - perhaps a Zappa or Cohen might get the point across.

So for me the Zen approach to songwriting is one I shy away from, and have trouble comprehending sometimes. I suppose I'm guilty of trying to tidy up something (the wink/sink would-be couplet....) that, to Ken, DOESN'T need altering. Different strokes, different folks. I suppose I am a little rigid in the structure of my writing - formulaic, even? But then I'm not one for writing cryptic lyrics - I like to get the point across quickly, so that people understand what I'm trying to explain, and think, "yes, that happened to me..." I'd like to use more imagery in my writing, more poetry, more mystique - but that isn't really me.

I didn't say I didn't enjoy the writing - it's a fresh slant on an old idea. It's just that I prefer structured and tidy to Zen, or stream-of-consciousness writing. What I shouldn't do is treat every song the same - some people don't follow the rules, and can get away with it all the time - Straycat, for example.

Anyway, you've certainly given me food for thought, Mr Noir - and I will, in suitably chastened fashion, treat every song on its own merits in future!

And as for Art - well, one man's art is another man's pile of bricks, or dessicated dog-turds, or sheep in formaldehyde....

I'm glad you've taken the time and trouble to explain, though, Ken - I will read your lyrics in a different light from now on.

:D :D :D

Vic]]> Sunday Songwriters Group Vic Lewis VL https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295208 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295197 Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:22:05 +0000
This is a bit harder to explain....
Zen always is :twisted:

To me, a lot of songs I see here on SSG seem to be written 'one sentence at a time', for lack of a better definition.

About the best way I've seen Zen try to be defined is with the old example of using a fork to eat....
Something we can all do; Without thinking about it.
If you did stop to think about it, you'd probably end up sticking yourself in the face with the fork.

When you talk, you don't think about every word that you say....
And writing a song should be like that, or it will sound as funny as if you did stop to think of every word you say when you speak.

Kerouac was a firm believer in writing without stopping, without punctuation, or structure.
He thought that all of those things were stumbling blocks and would inhibit the 'source'.

Don't get me wrong.... I still write things without a Zen method.
And I still write songs using the tried (tired) and true 'formulas'....
Sometimes though.... JAZZ!!!! :D

I'm just saying that there are a lot of possibilities....
Art has always been about testing boundaries, pushing limits, breaking new ground....
It's not enough to write about 'subjects' that you normally wouldn't if you're never going
to venture out of that same old crate you've been sitting in.

If you just stay in the same old box, you're sure to write songs....
If what you want is ART though....

Ken]]> Sunday Songwriters Group CitiZenNoir https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295197 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295194 Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:07:09 +0000
Throw out the rules?
Kewl!
I never knew them! :mrgreen:

And how could anyone get us confused? :shock:
Is she not getting enough sleep? HAHAHAHA!]]> Sunday Songwriters Group CitiZenNoir https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295194 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295192 Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:49:32 +0000
Throw out the rules?
Kewl!
I never knew them! :mrgreen:

And how could anyone get us confused? :shock:
Is she not getting enough sleep?]]> Sunday Songwriters Group KR2 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/paged/2/#post-295192 https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/#post-295190 Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:27:16 +0000
Vic wrote:

"I got a watch and a chain
and a book and a ring
that I keep above the sink
in a cup that you can't see"

and thinking ahead to the second stanza, maybe reverse the order of the last two lines.....

"I got a watch and a chain
and a book and a ring
somewhere you can't see
above the sink"

First off.... I don't know if it's just that I know the melody of the original, but to me; The rewrite just falls off.... it doesn't flow anymore.

Secondly (and most importantly): The way I have the 'order' is correct as far as I'm concerned.
To me, being a Chicagoan, and a Blues fan; music (in this case lyrically speaking) makes great use of 'call and response';
or as it is sometimes called - 'Question and Answer' or 'Tension and Release'.

"I got a ring, somewhere above the sink"
leaves you hanging.... It's not in the form of a question, though as the reader/listener, you should be 'asking' yourself
a question about it.... It has effectively created 'tension'.

Response/Answer/Resolution - "In a cup that you can't see"
Ahhhhhhh.... :)

The rewrite has the answer before the question.

If you look at it from a cinemaphotographer/movie director POV, then I have it set up in a very Hitchcockian sort of a way
(Think of the begining of psycho), or Orson Welles' shot in Citizen Kane when he goes thru the skylight....
You anticipate seeing a ring.... You move from floor level to looking above the sink on top of the cabinets....
And there! In the Cups....
See how that works????

I mean, I like playing with structure just fine.

Here's something I wrote several years ago while trying to carve out an 'original' writing style.
It's about my grappling with alcoholism.
(Looking at it now; There are a few things that I'd like to change yet :twisted: )('Convention' was never right)

beyond convention lies a force
dark and determined
a whirling vortex
granting to those without a soul
sanctuary
in somber asylum
the influential and zealous depression that rages at it's heart
sweeps away the uttering untruths and deliberate falsehoods
with a striking voracity

This is about the SIXTH draft!

I think it started out - 'A place where the soulless have gathered to find sanctuary in the asylum'

Then I got the first three lines and was still trying to sort out the 'soulless' part....
It then became: 'gathering the souless together'
Then: 'granting sanctuary to the soulless in somber asylum'
Then: 'granting sanctuary to those without a soul in somber asylum'
Liking those 'words', I then 'switched' some around, and viola!
Granting to those without a soul: sanctuary; in somber asylum.

Vic wrote "Now you've got "wink" at the end of the first verse rhyming with "sink" at the end of the second....

If I could give one piece of advice about songwriting.... It's: Pick up that paper with all the 'RULES' on it, crumple it up, and toss it in the fireplace!

Sure, it's a bit easier to write a song when you follow a 'Formula'.... Like: write in four line verses and rhyme the last word
on the 2 and 4 lines.... do that twice, and then put in a chorus. Then a third verse structured like the first two.... then a bridge (because the song is too long and needs a change), then repeat chorus and fade.
Instant hit!

Maybe.

Or maybe it'll end up sounding like a 7th grader wrote it.

In a lot of my lyrics, I reach to transcend 'childish' rhyming....
I employ what some would call 'forced rhymes'.
That is: Words that are seemingly similar in sound, though not nec. rhymes.
As long as it doesn't sound like you are using a word simply because it 'fits' with a bit of force,
and it works well in the overall context of the song.... You'll get away with it.
And your songs will sound a little more mature as well.

As for the actual rhymes in this song not being on the same line....
Trust me.... It works like it is.

In one of Straycats older songs, I was reading along and all of a sudden noticed that a word I had just read was a rhyme
with something previous in the song,
though it was not OBVIOUS.
It almost gave me a sense of deja vu.
I had to go back and read it from the begining again.... and, missed what it was AGAIN.
It was VERY comfortable the way it was done.... That is It made me FEEL comfortable (as rhymes do), though not like I was reading a nursery rhyme.
She didn't follow that 'formula' of 1/1, 2/2 or 2/4 or whatever.
The words were in the first and third verses I think, and probably not on the same line or in the same place.

If the words themselves have a rhythm, then don't fight it.
Marvelous things are possible with words.

BREAK THE MOLD!!!!
AND FREE YOUR MIND!!!! :D

Ken]]> Sunday Songwriters Group CitiZenNoir https://guitarnoise.forum/sunday-songwriters-group/yr6-wk30-she-has-funny-cups/#post-295190