b9

I'm pretty sure the 9 would still be E#. The E is the flat 9 (and the flat 2).
It's all reletive to the major scale. For example the 3 in the minor scale is a flat 3. It doesn't become a major 3rd just because you're playing a minor scale.

Chord names aren't built from modes... ever. Here's the reason: let's say you're playng with a band, and the tune calls for an Am chord. That chord formula is 1-b3-5 on an A major scale, so the keyboard player reading his charts plays A-C-E. You rip into your solo in A phrygian (A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A) and get to that spot on the charts... if you apply the formula to the phrygian scale, you'll play A-Cb-E, and it won't mesh with the keys.

Since all chords are built on formulas only from the major scale of the root, a b9 will always be the tone 1/2 step above the tonic.

i get it..

so the REASON flat 9 chords are used over a Phrygian scale is that it fits in with the mode..

D#m9 would actually be D# F# A# C# E#

but the flat 9 turns E# to E, which now means all the notes.. fit in with the tonic phrygian scale..

(D# Phrygian has a natural B and E) .. no B is used and the E# is flat..

and this is why the chord is used.. glad i posted this.. its made more sense.

moving briefly from phrygian to spanish phrygian (third made major)

that a modal chord to have over the spanish would include a G.. (Fx) to add the note in the harmony..

so lets say

D#mb9 for helping the Phrygian sound

D#maddb11 (D# F# A# + Fx (G))

D# - F# = minor third..

not gonna change the root, augment the third interval.. F# = F## (Fx)
Fx enharmonic to G..

G# = 11 of D#
G = b11 of D#

even though "to be correct" you have augmented the 3rd not diminished the fourth.. so a better name for it would be..

D#madd#10 ?

No, you wouldn't add the 10th - that would give you two different tones with the same root name (F# and Fx). Notation gets pretty nighmarish when that happens, so you'd call the note G, and the chord would be noted D#m(b11).

To see why the notation gets so tough, write out the notes on a single stem - the double sharp on the 9th would affect all the F notes, so for the lower one you'd need to indicate a single sharp - and since the F is sharped by the key signature, and you've got a double sharp in the measure, the lower F note will need a sharp preceeded by a natural for clarity. Gets muddy right quick, doesn't it?

i thought the Fx would be an octave higher than the F# (the 3rd of the chord) therefore it wouldnt get in the way..

if it would get in the way.. it would be the same level as the F#

therefore i thought it would be D#maddaug3

Fx

A#
F#
D#

1

thats how i thought a 10th would look like, being an octave higher than the third..

**

i looked on sibelius how it would look, the F's on the same line.. is this how it looks (the 10th)

#A
#xFF
#D

(it had 2 F's on the same line, a sharp sign and a double sharp before it)
is this how you were saying it would look, and that why it would be a G and not a Fx so it looked better and were not on the same line??

if so,

why wouldnt it be written an octave higher?

One of them would have to be written an octave higher to make it playable on the guitar - unless you're using the open G string for one of the notes, it's not possible to play F# and G (or Fx) as a minor second.

The thing to remember about accidentals - they affect every note of the same name within the measure. If you place a sharp sign on the top line of the treble staff, it's undertood that any F appearing in the bottom space after the sharp occurs will be played sharp. Some publishers will use a sharp on the 'other' F notes as well, to aid in reading, but it's not truly neccesary.

Placing both notes on the same line would make for even more awkward notation, as Sibelius shows you... you've got both a sharp and double sharp before the chord... and you no doubt have a double note head on the F line or space there. How will you play the next F that occurs in the measure?

As far as naming the chord goes, chords have many synonymous names, so you can call it whatever gets your idea across, but it's best to have the chord symbol match what's in the notation. It prevents confusion. Since it will be clearest to call the Fx note a G natural, you're still looking at some kind of 4th (or 11th) for the added note.

ahh made sense. because what would the next F be? i wouldnt have a clue.

its weird because i would call every note like E# and Cb by their enharmonic equivilant (F and B) and i remmember people were all like

"well you have to call it Cb"

and you gave the example of the "is it an augmented fourth or diminished fifth, the note name makes all the different, even if it is called something else too"

and that made sense, i just thought the same type of thing would have to apply here..

but realising notation wise this is an exception were Fx has to become G.

i wouldnt have even thought about considering notation in this puzzle that i had, i understand now.

i just need to learn where the exceptions are in this horrible game of theory, lol.

Thanx!