chord substitution for G11?

Here's the fretboard layout of all the notes in G11:

(And the direct link to the page: http://www.ChordsAndScales.co.uk/viewer/b7/cs37 )

I originally designed the site for just this purpose, to get all the notes in all the positions on screen so I could work out my own voicings to suit. Anyhoo, it's essentially the C that makes it an 11th chord, so you need to get one of those in there.

Which voicing you use will probably depend on how the song sounds to you - for example if the chorus emphasises a bass note run down, I'd use 330001 or 330003 for the G11 (for a nice progression into 320001 for the G7).

Hope that helps :)

That second version - 330003 would only give you Gadd11 - you haven't got the 7th in there.

Best,

A :-)

Ooops, my bad. You get the gist though :)

An 11th chord like the G11 "theoretically" contains the notes 1-3-5-b7-9-11, or in G, G-B-D-F-A-C.

It's typical function is as the dominant chord (V) in C major, as in this case.

You can, and probably should, skip the 9 (A) as it is redundant in this case and will but muddy the waters.

I'd probably finger it: 320011 (GBDGCF)

Unless I had a reason NOT to play it this way, my first shot at a G11 is going to be barreing at the 5th fret, 2nd finger 2nd string 6th fret, 3rd finger 1st string 7th fret, play strings 1-4. That gives me G-C-F-B, This gives me the 3rd so I have the chord quality (major/minor) and the 7th and 9th giving me the tension the chord calls for. It's also very easy to finger.

You can choose to do a full barre and play all 6 strings for an A in the base (probably not what you want since that's the 9th), play 5 strings for a D in the base (the 5th probably not a bad choice), or 4 strings for a G in the base (would be my first choice).

If it doesn't work for voice leading reasons, then I'd try and figure out the answer to two questions -- where do I need the voices to move FROM and TO? AND what note do I need in the melody?

That is a change chord symbol G11!!

This chord actually does not exist and I would guess this is en error. The 11 would be a C and this conflicts with the third of the chords a B. So mayby you are right and the chord should be F/G or Gsus4(9/11). Looking at the chord progression thats probably it. So just play:

(low to high) G F A C with the third finger on the low E string. If you know release the first finger to an open string you have the next chord in your prgression (with a 9 added as a bonus). This was often used by guitar player Barney Kessel. You could also relase the first finger and slide the second finger one fret back for a G7b9 chord!!

Niliov

"...That is a change chord symbol..." should be STRANGE chord symbol

This chord actually does not exist and I would guess this is en error. he 11 would be a C and this conflicts with the third of the chords a B. So mayby you are right and the chord should be F/G or Gsus4(9/11) . . . So just play: (low to high) G F A C

Is there tension there? yes. But "conflict?" I don't think so. While I agree it's a slightly silly shorthand, it's not an error. You'll find that chord name used by Jazz types all over the pace and they'll know exactly what they mean.

In most jazz contexts your suggestion would be adventurous. You don't generally want to add upper tensions (the A) outside of the chord name because who ever's doing the improve over that chord may very well want to use something like a b9. The seventh is usually safe.

Now, I don't know what genre this comes from, but limiting this to jazz I'd want to keep the root, third (need to be major or minor), one of the 5th or the 7th and the 11th (it's there probably because of melodic reasons after all).

Unless you know that your soloist is going to not alter the 9, using the A is risky.

Hi Kingpantzer,

seems to be an ongoing discussion between us, haha!

I have never seen G11 written on a chord sheet in jazz, never. Not in all the years playing jazz professionally (sorry to bring this up!!). I did see them however in sheets made by students but they were mistakes. If you write G11 you are talking about adding all notes UNTILL the 11th including the 9 so: G B D F A C . Spelled like this the chord has no practical value especially in jazz because the added C is clouding the function of the chord being a dominant. Some common dominant jazz laterations:

White or normal : 9, 13
altered: b9, b13
octotonic: b9, 13
wholetone: 9, b13

As you see there is no trace of the 11th because it is the same in all the scales for dominant chords namely: #11. It is usually omitted since it is a very intrusive extension which is actually clouding the colour since it is part of all dominant colours!

The 11th is mostly added in minor seventh chords sionce now it is not "colluding" with the third!

If by the way you want a G7 chord with only an added 11th (as you are suggesting) you should write: G7add11 but this sounds like well...shit! If you show me a jazz song with this chord I owe you a big apology.

Niliov

(Did you try the voicings I provided? Did you like them?)

This chord actually does not exist and I would guess this is en error.

Sure it does... there's a fine example in Piston's Harmony taken from Beethoven's Violin Sonata Op.30 No.1. Although it's true that the 'chord' part of the phrase isn't an 11th, the combination of the chord and melody create exactly that. (Granted, the chord is played using 3-5-b7-11 while the melody plays 1, but the melody then moves 1-9-1)

I hear what you're saying about the conflict, though. As a practical matter, it doesn't factor into the guitar. Since an 11th chord has six tones, and guitars have only six strings, it's pretty tough to play a full 11th - and you'd be very limited in the number of ways you could voice it.

It's common for guitarists to play four-note voicings of 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths. The third is usually dropped (and often the fifth as well), but it would be misleading to write G-F-A-C as F/G when it's clearly serving a dominant function in the progression.

Well, I have to check the Beethoven to be sure, but it sounds to me the melody is just a delay (not sure if this is the correct term in English, I am Dutch). Of course you can play an 11th (or 4th) in the melody when the chord is a dominant, thats what happens in almost every song (not just Beethoven I guess). You can also play a diminished arpeggio over a tonic, delaying with a raised IV , right? But to conclude that therefore there would be something like a Fadd #9/b7/b12/13 would be taking things a bit to far I think!

You write:
"...It's common for guitarists to play four-note voicings of 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths. The third is usually dropped (and often the fifth as well), but it would be misleading to write G-F-A-C as F/G when it's clearly serving a dominant function in the progression...."

That is open to debate. Because I feel the function is a subdominant. The bass note comes from the dominant but the chord itself is a delay so: the dominant is delayed with the subdominant -> pedal G with an F chord over it either going to V or directly to I maybe even I with a G bass:

F/G C/G

Now would you say the last chord is a dominant as well? No way, this looks like a standard IV I progression with a G pedal!

Niliov
Niliov

You can certainly view 11ths as slash chords, but you don't need to.

Moreover, it's not a mistake to write G11 instead of F/G. It's a matter of personal taste.

You'll have to excuse me for not providing you an example of a chart with an 11 in it at this point in time, I don't have my lead sheets with me. But I'll give you a few examples when I get home.

As you say it's "open to debate." Things are open to debate when both sides have a legitimate point. So if some practice is justifiable, it's a little high-handed to call it a mistake. It might not be the way you'd do it, but it's not intrinsically wrong.

X11 is a common enough chord symbol, appears on chord charts for a variety of instruments, including piano and guitar, and after I get home I'll be more than happy to give you a list of lead sheets I possess on which it appears.

And at least one guy disagrees with you. I have no idea who Pete Thomas is, btw, but I've found the information on his site to be well written, easily understood, and usable. None of which means it's not utter claptrap, but I've no reason to suspect that.

Hey you guys are keeping me of that piece of music I had to finish today but I'm having fun nonetheless!!!

Thanks for the site I checked it out and in fact he's backing up my earlier claim of the 11th colluding with the third, because he writes:

"...11ths on a dominant 7 usually omit the 3rd, so can be viewed as slash chords, eg a C11 (Gm7/C) would be voiced as a Gm7. (You can ignore the C as it is covered by the bass). 11ths on a minor 7 do not need to omit the 3rd, but for close voicing it is best to treat them the same as above..."

OK, so now we are getting into correct/incorrect shorthand notations!! I do owe you an apology because I was'nt suggesting that one should never use G11 (or actually I was but I take it back), it just creates confusion because now it LOOKS like both the third and the 11th are in the chord: I do not see a symbol for omitting the third!! That is why I should ADVICE against using this symbol (is that better??) because many musicians do not know what is meant exactly. Maybe this is the difference beteen the US and Europe (I am Dutch).

If we all agree that G11 indicates a sus-chord everything is fine. But just in case it would be safer to write: Gsus4(9/11) or simpler F/G or D-7/G !

Niliov

I'm not sure what you mean by "safer," but it isn't always more precise.

First, a sus2 or sus4 chord implies (but does not require) the third is replaced by the 2 or the 4; while an 11 chord does implies the opposite -- that the third is retained. Maybe people may not play it, but as you correctly noted up thread, G11 does include the B.

Further when I see G11 I think "I need to voice a C in the melody." When I see F/G or D-7/G I think "I need to voice a G in the base." When I see a sus4 I think the C is probably there for harmonic reasons.

(and, frankly, I'm wierd, I LIKE the 3rd in an 11 chord .. because I like establishing the major/minor quality of the chord. I hear tension but not conflict . . . too much Ornette Coleman I guess :) )

So, clearing this up a bit ...

When I see Gsus4, I gather that the third is not desired by the composer/arranger, and that the C is there for harmonic not melodic reasons.
When I see F/G I think that the composer/arranger wants a G in the base. I'm have to look to the melody line (if I have it available) to figure out what note is in the melody.
When I see G11 I think that the composer wants a C in the melody and that establishing the chord as major with the third is ok.

Are they all the same chord. Usually! But what's implied by the chord symbol is different in each case.

And yes, the voicing I gave above doesn't have the C in the melody. You can get there with 4th finger 8th fret 1st string, but then you've doubled up on your C's . . so to fix that I'd not do it as a barre chord, in order to put the B on the 3rd string, but the threat started asking for an EASY way to play the chord ....