Get yur guns and be prepared to put me outta my foggy misery

Looks like two questions there, Corbind... first off, the root names the scale, so you've got A dorian (which is a mode in the key of G) and B phrygian (also a mode in the key of G).

Second, there's about as many ways to do a scale as you can shake a stick at. Most systems show five fingering patterns that overlap to cover the neck, but the truth is you can play any scale in any position with a bit of work (and thinking and stretching). Even when you narrow it down, like playing from C on the 3rd fret of the 5th string to C on the 8th fret of the 1st string, there are still a lot of ways to achieve it - which string do you shift on? Which finger? Lots of room for different approaches!

The really important things are to learn the fretboard, and to know how scales are formed. If you know the G scale has G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G, and you know where each of those are, you won't get lost, even if you get 'out of position' every now and then.

Tom, I hear ya. Just play the notes in the G major scale and you're good. Still, I'm just a fumbling fool in doing it and associating it with a name. I just played for a whole 5 minutes and I'm done. I can't take it for more than that at this point. Four guitar lessons and I can't manage more than 5 minutes straight. Very sad. :cry:

Corbind,

There is a table that shows all of the modes for each of the keys - you simply need to click on the link "Want to dig up on some neat theory charts?" at the bottom of your sig. 8) 8)

Corbind,
Don't rush it. Play one box over and over for a week. Then add the next box for a week. You don't need to know all of these by tomorrow. Take several weeks on one scale, G. Then after several weeks when you feel comfortable with it, try it another key for a few weeks. And so on.

I repeat, do not rush. Slow and easy wins the race.

Hope that made sense.

Tim

PS. With guitar, I think I find that very often if I train my fingers my head will eventually follow.

Thanks for continuing to help me understand and keep going forward. At times I do need that reassurance and this is a real good time. I just read the last 3 responses and a couple of PM's so I'm feeling better. Tom, I'm looking forward to being your beta tester for your upcoming work. Tim, I was feeling that one box a week was too little to learn. But considering I'm practicing it just minutes a night before my chord work maybe that would be a good goal. Graham, I went back to your site yesterday and only looked at a few things when I should have looked at the Mode construction chart. That really helped a lot just like your other chord charts I use often.

For the past couple of hours I've been reading some stuff and I'll post when I get it together to see if I "got it."

Feel free to take two weeks per box. The point is to let it become instinctive. That takes time. It's not too little to learn at all.

Tim

thats one of the great things about playing in modes, is that a lot of times one mode is actually many, and it all depends on one thing, which note you start on and which one you end on.

***

so stick around G, start on different notes, the note you start on is the <Note>, and then the mode.

I think I may be a little further today than two days ago. I'm going to throw some things out and please, if you can, provide some feedback if they are right or wrong.

The G major scale consists of G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G. The G major scale starting on the G note is playing the Ionian mode.
If I start on the ii/A I would be playing a A Dorian.
If I start on the B/iii it would be B Phrygian.
Start on C/IV would be C Lydian.
Start on D/V it would be D Mixolydian.
Start on E/vi it would be E Aeolian.
Start on F#/vii it would be F Locrian.

Generally speaking, starting on the I, IV, or V would sound happier while the ii, iii, vi, and vii sound more sad. The key or G major contains the chords G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#m. If I play A Dorian I'm bringing out that Am sound. B Phrygian brings out the Bm. Mixolydian brings out the V or the Dmaj7 sound. On an on.

I'm frustrated that they don't just call each mode by the name of the key it's in. Like G Ionian, G Dorian, G Phrygian. To me that would be easier to remember. Still, it seems you have to call each mode based on the degree of the key (just like chords in a key) then the mode name.

It also seems that There are 7 major modes. Major chords are happy. Major scales should be happy but some modes throw darkness upon them. I'd imagine the converse is true with minor scales where some would sound happier than others.

Now I'm getting a bit off base here. I'm envisioning being a rhythm player the rest of my playing days. I only want to be able to play lead here and there so I'm contemplating why I should bother playing any scale but the minor pentatonic. That's used most of the time in rock and that's what I listen to and play.

Also, I asked a friend who has been playing for a couple of decades some questions. One was “how can we be playing a song in a major key and the solos are in minor pentatonic. It seems like the minor sound would clash with the major rhythm playing.” He said “that's the beauty of it—it works.”

Start on F#/vii it would be F Locrian.

F# Locrian, but, almost definatly a mistake.

The modal sound (this is what i was taught by all my music teachers so its not me getting things wrong, they all have degrees in music theory)

The ear expects to hear a scale based on its pattern of tones and semitones

so when you play A Dorian.. the ear expects to hear a scale based on A major/minor..

when you hit that flat 3, it starts to expect a minor key, as normal, and when you play the flat 7th note of that scale, its that note that makes this scale different from A minor.. it does bring out a tonality of A but playing this note, brings about the sound of the Dorian mode and its this note that has to be played quite a bit, to truley distinguish itself from A minor scale.

same for all modes, like in Lydian, playing the #4 is the note that seperates that scale from the normal major scale and its that, that brings out the modal sound.

Then modes such as the Phrygian mode have lots of notes different to the major scale, it gives it a much more "Dark" and modal sound because more notes are different and its easier to hear, eg.

Phrygian is considered a minor mode (iii) and it is compared with the B minor scale.. but compared to the major scale it is so different.

B Minor - B C# D E F# G A B
B Major - B C# D# E F# G# A# B
B Phrygian - B C D E F# G A B

There are 7 major modes

There are 12 major modes (A major, B major, C major, D major, E major, F major, G major, Ab major, Bb major, Db major, Eb major and Gb major)

the flat keys are enharmonic to the sharp keys like C# major/Db major.

**

He said “that's the beauty of it—it works"

it is unbelieveingly common how much pieces of music move to the relative minor, it does in tons of classical music, to show contrast..

and if you want a solo to stick out from a song the best way is to go major to minor, it is a beauty of how it works

- Hope it helped

Corbind, you're right about there being seven major modes (Alex, there are 12 chromatic tones, not modes). Six of the modes are historic, dating to early church music, with the Locrian being a theoretical construction.

The reason that a minor chord sounds 'sad' and a major one sounds 'happy' has to do with the placement of the third: 1-b3-5 creates the minor sound, while 1-3-5 creates the major sound.

If we apply that line of thought to the church modes, you get the following:

Ionian: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
Dorian: 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
Phrygian: 1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
Lydian: 1-2-3-#4-5-6-7
Mixolydian: 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7
Aeolian: 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7

Some of the modes have b3, others the natural 3... that's going to have a lot do do with the way they sound.

by "major mode"

i thought he meant Ionian.. meaning major scale, so i thought he meant "7 major scales"

what did he mean 7 major modes?

i understand 3 major modes (Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian)

but 7? i must have misread something.

I took his intent to be 7 modes built from the major scale... perhaps Corbind will clarify for us :)

I thought he was refering to:

I
D on't
P retend to
L ike
M iddle
A ged
L adies

Someone told me that pneumonic recently. I thought it was funny.

Someone told me that pneumonic recently

I think you mean "mnemonic" - pneumonic is the kind of medicine you take for lung problems