"Roll over Beethoven" questions

Hi, Wes!

I really appreciate your concern.
My point is not: tell me what I get if I mix red and blue.
It's rather like I'm a beginner-painter and I can't properly identify red nor blue (although there's a label that indicates it and all the other students recognize them) and I don't know what to do to mix them, or I feel the need to go against the instructions cause my results are somehow limited.

Any advice is valued. You say you've been playing for 30 years, which makes me think that a lot of what you know is instilled in you just by exposure and common sense and intelligence on your side. But the direct confrontation with theory in a way that can be directly applied should work faster somehow. Or else (again) we study for the sake of studying.

Thanks again

Estamre- One of my favorite musicians and songwriters is Frank Black. It is obvious that he studies classic Rock from the 50's, 60's and re-writes it in his own image. He absolutely breaks all the rules, and writes some of the greatest lyrics you'll ever hear. He is doing sort of what you described in the post above.

Check him out, I think he'll be of special interest to you.

Hi, Wes!

All you say is quite encouraging. Thanks.
I haven't closely listened to anything by F. Black since the Pixies. But I think i'm too much of a beginner to be able to deconstruct like him. I can just try to copy (for the time being).

A while ago some people here said Perry Cuomo from Weezer takes Nirvana's songs and deconstructs them, making them unrecognizable (which I don't believe at all, because he's into power pop and new wave music and clearly not into Kobain). But that's just my opinion because no one can tell from his songs.

I dig your idea, I would like to be able do what you say and the P.Cuomo strategy as well, but I reckon I'm going to have to work a lot.

I'll keep you posted.

Also thanks to Noteboat for his help.

Still there are some unanswered questions left:

a) Is singing the scales worthwhile or should I just try to recognize them? I mean, should I really sing that Blues scale, for instance?
b) Please, somebody tell me if the conclusions from my experiment with scales are close to right. Can I get to feel and isolate those effects by deconstructing the song playing a scale over just one chord-shuffle?
c) According to Noteboat there's only one kind of Blues scale. But there's something I don't grasp yet. Has it got modes? Same as I get both a Major Pentatonic and its relative minor from every pentatonic pattern, do I get an equivalent scale with another root from the Blues pattern? If that is so, would the blue note stay at the same point in the pattern (although) the scale is totally different?

Well, at least I am doing fine with my tabs and transcriptions.

Thank you all

Hello again Estambre, First, let me say that I will be 50 years old on my next birthday. I started playing guitar as a teen in the 60's. At that time there were not the resources you have today. There were no computers with sites like this, and there were very few books about Guitar playing. I learned the way most people learned in those days. You would listen to records and copy what you heard. The great advantage to this is it develops your ear. The disadvantage is that you can learn much quicker through sites like this.

I think you are being a little too analytical about music. Music is not like a math formula that you study to solve and then you will have this instant ability to play well.

Is there more than one Blues scale? Well, if you go on this site they will give you the Basic Pentatonic Blues scale. Then they will introduce you to some passing notes. You see Estambre, if you add some notes outside the classic Blues scale, the Music Scale Police are not going to come after you.

You sound as if you have not been playing too long. We all have to start somewhere. You want to learn Blues? Practice the Blues scale but then go out and listen to the Great Blues players like B.B. King, or Muddy Waters, or Stevie Ray Vaughn, etc....    All of these guys used the Pentatonic Blues scale, but listen how differently they applied it. Jimi Hendrix basically used the Pentatonic Blues Scale for almost all his solos. Look at the incredible sounds he got that no one can truly imitate.

No amount of study can substitute for picking up your guitar and trying to copy the sounds you like from your favorite players. You will like different licks than I do. You will like different artists than I do. Your personal style will evolve from you learning to play the sounds and licks that appeal to you.

Most guitar players start out trying to sound like their favorite artists. This is a great start. It will teach you technique. Then you will arrive at a point where you start to play your own music. I do not try to copy any artist. I just try to play the sounds I hear in my head. If that takes me outside the Blues Pentatonic Scale-- SO BE IT.  It's all about sound and Good Music.

Write again-  Wes

Wes Inman, I love you in the most heterosexual way possible. You put into words all that's been scrambled upp in my lost-for-words mind. That's what i mean. Theory is just the written language of music. The sound is the spoken. Just like english, written word can not contain as much as the spoken. that's why we need these:  :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-/ :-* :'(  We dont have "emusicons" so the sound is really what it's all about! there...that feels good out of my system.

a) Is singing the scales worthwhile or should I just try to recognize them? I mean, should I really sing that Blues scale, for instance?

If you can, it is probably beneficial.  Anything that reinforces the connection between sound and brain is.
b) Please, somebody tell me if the conclusions from my experiment with scales are close to right. Can I get to feel and isolate those effects by deconstructing the song playing a scale over just one chord-shuffle?

What is characteristic of blues is the use of blue notes.  Notes that are a half note apart.  This gives blues its dark, slightly off key sound.  The b3 over a chord with a major 3rd is one.  The b5 over a chord with a perfect 5 is another.  The b7 over a chord with a maj7th (the V) is a third.  In the blues, these sour halftone intervals are all over the place, unlike other genres of music.  

While in other genres of music you would play a major scale over major chords, in blues you use a minor scale.

But in reality, in blues you use all the notes of the chromatic scale and some in between (by bending).
c) According to Noteboat there's only one kind of Blues scale. But there's something I don't grasp yet. Has it got modes? Same as I get both a Major Pentatonic and its relative minor from every pentatonic pattern, do I get an equivalent scale with another root from the Blues pattern? If that is so, would the blue note stay at the same point in the pattern (although) the scale is totally different?

Of course it has modes.  It has 6 notes, therefore it has 6 modes.  On the other hand, just as with modes of the major scale, you can safely forget all about them forever.  

Personally, I feel the blues scale is the minor pentatonic and that the b5 should not be given special status in it.  It is not the only note used as a passing note in blues.  The major 3rd, major 6th and major 7th are used just as much.

Thanks to PsYcHoNIK for the compliments. I play in a mostly covers band, but one thing I don't copy is the solo. The solo is MINE, and I'm a pretty freaky player.

I agree with Helgi, the "Blues" scale is the minor pentatonic over Major or Dominant Chords. There are Minor Blues as well such as Since I've Been Loving You by Led Zepplin.

Many great Blues players alternate between the Minor Pentatonic and Major Pentatonic. Eric Clapton is famous for this. If you've ever listened to Crossroads, not only does he switch from the  A Minor to A Major Pentatonic, but he also at times used the D Minor & D Major Pentatonic scales over D and E Minor & E Major Pentatonic over E. This is an old Blues trick. If you are playing a Blues in A, you are not locked into using the A Minor Pentatonic only (however you can if you wish). Most great Blues players alternate between the scales all the time.  I was always a big fan of Ted Nugent. He also alternates between the scales. The secret of being great is knowing when to switch!!

Seems like a lot of folks throw the Dorian in there too, don't they?  

Yes, the Dorian is a beautiful scale.

I am by no means a musical scholar. I play lead by ear, and by many years of experimentation. But I believe if you super-impose the Minor and Major Pentatonic scales over each other you have the Dorian. No? Or is it the Mixolydian?

That's the whole point, you can't really be thinking about this stuff when you're playing. You've got to trust your ideas and experience and go for it. That's improvising.  

Agreed.  I'm at a point now where as I'm learning a solo I'll try to figure out what scale(s)/mode(s) are building it.  It helps me make sense out of what I'm playing.

I've also found that practicing those scales helps my fingers find the notes of a solo more easily.

Hi and thanks to all of you for your support!

Wes is absolutely right when he says I'm a beginner. I've been playing guitar for a year an a month now. But I really don't agree with him when he says I'm too analytical about theory. This not a personal thing I'm debating here. It's a pedagogical approach.

I am myself a language teacher (German) and think that learning anything without the theory is less demanding (mentally) but it can get you nowhere. If we're talking about spoken language, almost every human being is genetically endowed for using language. But not a single person learns to speak without parental or otherwise guidance. Without that support children don't develop speech. Besides, if you don't receive linguistical education (as such) you'll be able to speak but (generally) you won't be able to use language to the same extent as if you had been educated (read, write, learn a new language, receive further education...).

I very much doubt you can learn to play the guitar (or almost anything for that matter) to contemporanean standards without theory (and without external help or guidance). The very idea of mentioning the pentatonic means you are acquainted with theory (not to mention Dorian...) Unless you are really gifted, which I'm not.

Since I'm not a kid anymore (not quite) and I don't have those 30 odd years ahead of me for learning, I'm going to go for theory, because I don't really think I'd achieve anything on my own (even in that time).

I do appreciate your concern, though and I do think you're nice, Wes.

But I don't think I can experiment if I don't have a clue to what I'm experimenting with.

And maybe it's just me but I wouldn't get any results by only playing, although I play for something like AT LEAST 5 hours a day (reading about theory not included)  

In regards to learning how to play the guitar, the Internet, GuitarNoise and Mr. David Hodge are my equivalent to what family and school are as a ressource to learn how to speak.

Thanks to all

Estambre- I don't even know what pedagogical means!

I took two years of German in High School, but if you don't use it you lose it. I still remember a little. Ich spreche ein bitte Deutsch. Probably misspelled there.

Thanks for saying I'm nice. You sound like a nice person too.

I think you should keep studying Theory. Yes, I know about Pentatonic Scales, I've studied Modes (still don't quite get it though), bought books about Jazz Chords and Progressions etc..., so I study too. And it helped. I am not putting that down at all.

This subject has gotten off on a Rabbit Trail (my fault). I was just saying and still believe that the way the Beatles played Roll Over Beethoven was probably made because they liked they way it sounded, and maybe wanted to alter the song from the way Chuck Berry played it. I seriously doubt they sat down and had a discussion about Music Theory. But who knows, maybe they did?

I cannot really imagine the early Blues players studying Music at all. I'm sure some did. But I know for a fact many (most) did not.

Whatever helps you learn faster and play better is a good thing. So keep up the good work.

Wes

I really go with the whole trying to make your guitar talk thing... it really helps when learning and experimenting. But most impotantly, it's not the destination you reach, it's the journey you travel. It doesnt really matter how good you get, its how much fun you have getting there. That's really why I dont much bother racking my brain with the theory, because I dont enjoy it as much as getting down and playing. :)

Estambre- Thanks for the discussions we have had the last few days. I hope you consider them friendly. I just started posting a few days ago, and I certainly didn't come on here to argue, or criticize anyone. One of the greatest things about guitar or any musical instrument is we all have the choice to play it the way we like, whether it be Rock, Jazz, Classical, Country or even Rap.

I am more like PsYcHoNIK. I am interested in Theory, but I just enjoy playing. I love standing on a stage hitting a power chord with distortion! I am a simple guy and I like simple things. I play mostly by feel and listening carefully. I get lost in the sound.

You told us you are a language teacher. It is obvious you are of an intellectual bent. And so Theory and Analysis fits your Personality. I'm no Dummy (I went to College) but I'm more into the Sound.

My last argument to you is this. I have a 5 year old daughter. She is a beautiful blonde with blue eyes. She is very intelligent, has been reading before her 4th birthday. She is a sweet-heart. But man does she talk, and talk, and talk. Now when she speaks (and she speaks as well as a 10 year old) she uses all the parts of speech, nouns, pronouns, verbs, adjectives, prepositions....everything. Yet she has not the slightest idea what any of these words mean. You do not have to thoroughly understand all the parts of speech to speak well. She learned all of this by simply LISTENING. A person could go their entire life and never study language and yet be a brilliant speaker. So with Music. I saw Jimi Hendrix on an old Dick Cavett interview, he said he didn't even know what a C chord is. I heard him say this.

Now, I agree with you on this. You have a much better chance of becoming a great musician if you study and have a thorough understanding of Music. But, no matter how much you study, you will not be a great musician unless you LISTEN.

Hi Wes and everybody!

I've been considering everything you said to me, because I know you have a lot of experience and you know your method works, whereas I don't know if mine does.

I've been confronted with many theoritical approaches in my life. I studied most not because I found pleasure in doing so, but because I could get a better grasp of the object under study.
I mean I don't want to learn theory. I learn it because I want to play and understand music to play some more.

Last night I transcribed Jingle Bells myself. It's my first tune ever. I used my theory to transcribe. But it was ABSOLUTELY useless in order to find the notes. I could have found them  without knowing how to read music.

But I wouldn't be able to read music (my song-books)without them. And I wouldn't be able to get on with David's lessons.

My learning would be badly restrained. I won't let that happen.

Could you give some practical advice on the way you approach this song (strumming, solo, singing, whatever...) or old-style rock and roll?

Would you be so nice as to teach us some of your songs or tricks?

Thank you very much