Ness K Vs. Cover Bands

One more and I'll let it go.
(maybe)

Mother Goose Original version of
Little Miss Muffet:

Little Miss Muffet
Sat on a tuffet,
Eating her curds and whey.
Along came a spider,
Who sat down beside her,
And frightened Miss Muffet away !

Rap Version: (my interpretation, anyway)

I had my Ho
Out workin' the street
Only way I know to be rich
Up walks this mother
And slaps the dumb Ho
And jacks the bling off my bitch

I can't stand rap music. Just seems people talking really fast about how they're rich and I'm poor while making funny hand motions and at a camera. I just figure anyone can do that.

Anyone can do it? Alright, you come up a rapsong while I'll write a grunge tune, let's see which one will take more talent and skill. Gee, why do I have this feeling in my tummy that you're going to chicken out? I mean, really, common. Most of us play rock, blues, punk, grunge and such. We barely know more then a handfull of chords, we use the most basic and simple rhythms, we can't read to save our lives and God forbid we have to improvise over something that is not a I IV V progression so we can't randomly copy&paste our pentatonic licks. Our lyrics uses the most rudimentary and primitive rhyhmes, the phrasing is practically fixed for every verse and unless you put the message (usually something like 'John loves Jane') in the chorus we're too dumb to figure out what the song is about.

Taste is one thing, but a bunch of guitarists talking about how little skill other musicians have (expescially if you have 'grunge' in your name) is so horrendously pathetic that it would have probably won an oscar for best dialogue if the irony had been intended.

All true enough.

But do you really think rap's better?

I don't think any kind of music is better/worse then anything else. I dig chopin and can't stand 50 cents but there is no way I can claim Chopin is objectively better. I do think that there's is a lot of talent walking around in the hiphop scene and every musician can learn a lot from it, espescially the songwriters among us. It's really hard to to say something with a fixed number of syllables, with the most important syllables at the right place while working with two triple-rhymes in one sentence. Heck, plenty of people I see in the songwriters forums here seem to be happy just to have some sort of rhyhme going on, nevermind having a properly emphasized rhythm.

But most of all I'd like to see people stop taking cheap shots at a whole genre of music, espescially when it's so obviously based on extremely little experience with and exposure to the genre. Practically all the 'criticism' of people against rap (it's easy, they're hack musicians, the message is dumb, it'll have bad influence on youths, it's just loud noise, anyone can do it) is exactly what was said of rock musicians half a century ago. How hard can it be to say "I dont know a lot of rap songs but those I know weren't my taste and I don't feel like delving in deeper." instead of "All hiphoppers suck, guitarists rule, they are dumb and stupid and guitars are all cool and stuff."?

Well put. I can certainly only speak for myself, but I think the problem I have with rap music today isn't so much about the talent level of the artists, but more that most of what you hear anymore is the extreme "gangsta" style rap and that's just not for me. When I was into rap music, it really fell into two main categories, the fun stuff that made you dance and the social stuff that made you think. Somewhere along the lines the music, in general (not all of it certainly) just turned "angry" and that could very well just be an extension of the social statement in the music, but, for me, that side of it I personally just can't relate to anymore, although take a ride down some inner city streets and its easy to see how many still can.

Anyone can do it? Alright, you come up a rapsong while I'll
Did it in 5 minutes. (Took a nursery rhyme, made a rap song)
And like you said, if I can do it (being totally pathetic regarding my music abilities) anyone can.
Why? Because there's very little music skill involved. Just a sense of beat and making a rhyme.
Child's stuff. Which was my point.
I think you give rappers too much credit. I haven't seen one that can play ANY musical instrument.
But then again, I try to avoid the genre.
Actually, I have noticed a change in you, Arjen! Much as you might hate to admit it ... you have mellowed ever so slightly! You're not as adamant about things as you were a few years ago! You now take the time to weigh what other people are saying before you rip into them! I think you're on your way to becoming a very admirable man! (Don't shoot the messenger, please!! :lol: )
He's baaaaccckkk.

Did it in 5 minutes. (Took a nursery rhyme, made a rap song)

No, you didnt. You wrote a few lines with some swearwords in them. Text on a forum is not a song, you could just as well claim it to be a blues, funk or opera song. If you think you really can write a rapsong, let me *hear* it. I assume, since it is so easy for you, that you can make your own beat but if you fail feel free to let me know and I'll hook you up with a backing. We'll post it on a rapforum and see how far you come. How would you feel if some rapper came here saying guitar is easy, posting a line of tab as proof? We'd probably laugh at him and see he should play it instead if typing some numbers.

Oh, I'm listening to others, I'm just waiting for the 'rap is easy' crowd here to actually show me how easy it is. You see, I tried and failed miserably. If you think it's so easy, show me. It's easy to talk people down and pretend you could do it better yourself but words mean nothing unless it's backed up by action.

Check this song. It's in Dutch so you won't understand it, just listen to how it rhymes and flows:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UZQE6h8nDHU

Philly: all the social stuff is being banned from MTV and such, in practically every genre. Dumbing down as far as possible makes it easier to market things. It aint rap that sucks, it's the labels, radio channels, MTV etc that refuse to present us decent music.

I am totally with Ignar on this. I'm not a huge fan of rap music but I like some and to think that it doesn't take talent to "rap" well then you're out in left field.

It takes skill to come up with creative rap that actually fits a beat well and it's not all that easy to do. Look at Eminem, I think some of his rhymes are off the hook as they say.

Or how about the guys that can improvise a rap to a beat.

To me it's the same argument that I hear around here about how classic rock is so great and everything since then sux...come on, I grew up with classic rock but it's no better or worse then anything out today.

It's OK to like particular bands but to dismiss a whole genre of music because you don't like or think it takes no talent then it is wrong.

Hip-hop to me is more about the beat than the lyrics but there are still aritists doing some amazing stuff.

One thing to remember is alot of the rappers grew up in projects or on the streets so their songs are about what they know. It may sound nasty and rude to some people but that is the world they live in, drive by shootings etc. No different then the protest songs in th elate 60's early 70's just a different group of people.

And Ken..yea that was a pretty weak rap song attempt by any standard. And the reason you don't see rappers playing instruments is that a rapper is more closely related to a singer than a musician and most singers aren't playing instruments either. I don't ever remember seeing Frank Sinatra playing guitar?

Anyone can do it? Alright, you come up a rapsong while I'll write a grunge tune, let's see which one will take more talent and skill. Gee, why do I have this feeling in my tummy that you're going to chicken out? I mean, really, common. Most of us play rock, blues, punk, grunge and such. We barely know more then a handfull of chords, we use the most basic and simple rhythms, we can't read to save our lives and God forbid we have to improvise over something that is not a I IV V progression so we can't randomly copy&paste our pentatonic licks. Our lyrics uses the most rudimentary and primitive rhyhmes, the phrasing is practically fixed for every verse and unless you put the message (usually something like 'John loves Jane') in the chorus we're too dumb to figure out what the song is about.

Taste is one thing, but a bunch of guitarists talking about how little skill other musicians have (expescially if you have 'grunge' in your name) is so horrendously pathetic that it would have probably won an oscar for best dialogue if the irony had been intended.

We were talking about genre clinches at work one day, which is what genres are, a collection of clinches. He made a country song, something about being an alcoholic, getting thrown out by your wife, having to live in a trailer and eat catfood. He did a rock clinche song as well, couldn't tell you what the lyrics are as most of it was unintelligible screaming. Which is true, Kurt Cobain's lyrics got hard to understand a lot of times, especially if he had been drinking. We didn't do the blues one, but I figure you just vibrato one note for 20 minutes with your eyes closed and you're good.

I never said rap music was bad, nor did I say grunge music was complex. Music is full of clinches because people are full of clinches.

Philly: all the social stuff is being banned from MTV and such, in practically every genre. Dumbing down as far as possible makes it easier to market things. It aint rap that sucks, it's the labels, radio channels, MTV etc that refuse to present us decent music.

Not to get to off topic (although it might be too late for that regardless), but you bring up a good point. Having been in high school when the MTV thing came into existence, I've often wondered how popular music would have developed had it not been for its introduction. Let's face it, there are a lot of bands/songs that would have never hit the air ways without it (and in many cases we would have been better off for it), but I also have to tell myself their's a plus side as well (ie. exposing people, including myself, to genre's they would otherwise not have been exposed to). On balance, I'm undecided as to whether or not its been an overall good thing or bad thing but either way its an acedemic discussion since we're here now.

philly,

I hear you but the problem with any media type is they force feed you what they "think" you want to hear. So although having an alternative to just the radio sounds great in reality we are being manipulated by the record companies to listen to what they throw out there.

philly,

I hear you but the problem with any media type is they force feed you what they "think" you want to hear. So although having an alternative to just the radio sounds great in reality we are being manipulated by the record companies to listen to what they throw out there.

100% agree with you, but do you think the introduction of MTV changed that dynamic in any way, or did it just add a "visual" element to something that has been going on since companies first realized that they can make money on music? I'm just thinking of some of the bands I've traditionally liked (late 60's/early 70's classic rock for the most part) and I have to ask myself would I ever have heard of any of these bands if someone out their didn't think they could make a buck off their music.

I'd have to say probably not, for every band that you do hear on the radio or TV that you like there are probably hundreds or thousands more that you would like just as much if you had access to their music.

The Internet has made it easier but you still have to dig and search to find it. I used to watch MTV alot when it first came out (that's when they actually showed music videos)but I got tired of the same old rotation all the time. At this point I almost never listen to the radio anymore, partly because of the music but mostly because of no talent DJ's that somehow all think they are comedians and it gets real old especially the "morning shows" that you have in every area. Somehow these DJ's actually think they are adding something to the experience (and I guess for some people they might be) but I just want to hear the music, rather than some cheesy DJ make some juvenile sexual references and then have his croonies laughing in the background like it's Beavis and Butthead. I don't know why but it annoys the heck out of me. Well I do know why but we won't get into that here.

But most of all I'd like to see people stop taking cheap shots at a whole genre of music, espescially when it's so obviously based on extremely little experience with and exposure to the genre.
I'll agree with that. Even if it's not to my taste.

Why/how did I miss Arjen being sooooo on-point?

Now, seeing as this is my 1000th post, I'm commanding you all to check these.....

aint nothing 'gangsta' here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qAPQOxCGRo

Talib is tight - I could name a fair few guitarists who could learn a LOT from how this guy sits in the spaces of music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVCTrREKFVk&feature=related

Check Lupe's verse, aint no one on here as lyrically tight as that (he's third up) and aint many in music as tight as that. And again, hardly bragging, he's just on point all the way. That's just how it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gsKSFzMtiE

And Jay Z is a jazzer whose instrument is his voice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ntmhvCkUY