Tab Sites - Are they making it too easy?

In short, tab was good for me and I would not be here without it. It's positives led me to play songs, and playing songs has led me to an interest in becomming a musician. See what I'm saying?

I do, but I think I respectfully disagree with you.

I tend to think that the difference in progress between folks who rely solely on tab and folks who develop more sophisticated musical skills (ear training and standard notation) is about 4-5 years.

Inside of that time frame, tab readers seem like they're very much ahead of the non-tab folks. After that time frame, though, those who have choosen the harder path not only catch up, but they continue to surpass the tab'ers.

I find the distinction you draw between "wanting to play some songs" and "wanting to be a musician" to be an interesting one, though I'm not sure that it's one I agree with as being real.

Everyone who makes music is in some ways a musician. And while the path you've choosen is great for getting off the starting blocks, it's not really sustainable. And the teacher in me, at this point, wants to rail against a choice that hurts the development of a student.

This is something I deal wtih a lot as a teacher, and I'm not very successfull there either. Adults (and older kids) all seem to want the instant gratification route.

I wish you luck in doing whatever you want to do . . . and I won't ever tell anyone who makes a choice with their eyes open to the implications is wrong (that alone is something most people don't do!) . . . but I would urge you to start trying to figure out more and more tunes by ear yourself. It takes a little practice to build the skill, but once biult, you'll never quite look at tabs the same again! (And you'll be amazed at how far you really will have come at that point).

I think you (rparker) make very fair points. Everyone takes a different path for different reasons. I find it frustrating that guitar sometimes is made into a competitive sport (Greybeard has a good article on that somewhere on this site). I see no reason for people who use tabs (which includes me, though rarely do I use tab sites -- I prefer to purchase sheet music) to feel intimidated or inauthentic. I recall another board I used to visit with a fellow who insisted on having his students learn barre chords on guitars with difficult action because he thought it was cowardly to learn them on guitars with good action. His reasoning -- a nice low action made it too easy and if you learned how to barre on a guitar with high action and heavy gauge strings you could barre on any guitar you picked up. There is a certain logic to that but I find it a disagreeable one.

Anyone who's serious about learning guitar will work on a whole variety of skills and work to improve. It will all come in time. Tabs are clearly a valuable tool. And the more someone plays, the more that tool will be used appropriately in the context of all the various skills and techniques that come along with playing the instrument.
At least that's my humble opinion.

I don't mean to pick on you, rparker, and I hope you don't take this personally. I have a very strong view of tabs, and it's not positive.

Nothing taken personally. Let me just put on my inferior hat. :)

I'm having a blast at what I'm doing and do not care if musicians look down at me.

The truth is, I never once had an interest in becoming a musician until recently. Now I'm kind of looking into music theory and trying to comprehend it. Would I, meaning myself personally, have had the slightest interest in becoming a musician had it not been for tab and things like Guitar Pro? No. Not in the least. It was only after I learned how to play some songs did decide that I want to take it to the next level.

So, in light of that, tab has done FOR me exactly what I wanted it to. If I stop here, I've already accomplished my goals. If I set new goals, like becoming a musician, I know that tab is not the answer.

In short, tab was good for me and I would not be here without it. It's positives led me to play songs, and playing songs has led me to an interest in becomming a musician. See what I'm saying?

Seems like you sum it up very well rparker...your having blast doing what your doing, and due to the use of tab, you are looking to develop your skills beyond it. I say good for you.....

I for one rely on tab almost exclusively. Mainly because I'm lazy, but also because it gives that instant gratification feeling. Being a noob I need to see I'm making progress and tab allows me to feel that way. The few times I've sat down and tried to figure out a song by ear, I was lost. I don't know enough about chords and the fret board to even know where to begin. I don't do much tab off the net though. I much prefer to buy the "official" stuff in books. I do that because in my very early days I was learning a song from tab that I'd gotten off the net. Sounded about right to me, but when I played it for my teacher, he kinda laughed and said "doesn't sound bad, but you're doing it the hard way". He then showed me the "correct" way to play the song and the progression was much easier and sounded more accurate. I had to relearn the song the proper way. Being lazy, I told myself then that I'd stick to books. :)

Now, with that all said, I do however know that I'm selling myself short. I know I'm taking the "easy" way out and it will take me much, much longer to learn the fret board and theory. I'm in no rush though, so I'll continue down this road until I come to a point I make the decision to actually understand what the tab is telling me. In the two years I've been playing, I already know I'm getting close to that point though. My weekly jam sessions will probably force me to learn more. I can contribute more when I know what scale or chords work for the key we are in, etc.

That's just me though.

Jason

Just as an aside, but maybe not so far from the subject: Originally, tab was invented as a measure to put down on paper what was heard. One way. In that way, even standard notation is a form of tab, of the writing down of some aural/sonic idea. It's just for me, from what I've heard of the development of musical notation, the one replaced the other as being superior, thoough as anyone involved with standard notation would agree, it's still far from perfect. Like how loud is mf REALLY - in decibels?

It's still interperative to a good degree.

You look at the settings on a metronome and for each, i.e. addagio, you get a *range* of actual bpms, not a precise definition.

Internet Tab Sites, which what this thread originally talked about, to me at least, is a place where guitarists of any experience level can publish their versions of their favorite songs. These tabs, as everyone can agree, are uneven in quality because of the different skill levels of the people making them. 'Official' tabs on the other hand, made by the original musicians themselves, or studied, well trained cover musicians can be more reliable, but when I was introduced to standard notation and realized that it was more emcompassing than notation written for a particular instrument rather than a broad range of instruments, I opted to pretty much ignore tab.

Which at times I wish I hadn't, since most lute (and other older string instrument) music is still found in tablature. It's great for non-standard tunings and certain non-standard instruments, but the emphasis and wild growth of internet tab may be something as simple as the fact that it can be written without using non-standard font families, online, instantly. ASCII characters, monospaced fonts, and one can put up one's work on the internet. It doesn't make tab any better, just more convenient, and that allows more misinterpretation to be spread, more quickly.

But getting back to my point: if the original creators and users of musical notation, either the step-by-step approach of tab, or the 'shape of the music' standard-notation-workaround developed when Gregory wanted everything cataloged, if these guys had had some way of capturing the music directly - such as we have now with our tape and digital recorders, none of this would ever have come up at all. Gregory would've just sent out his guys with recorders and told them to bring back the discs so he could put them on his Gregorian Chant PodCast. Sound funny, but it's the 'same difference' really.

We're trying to capture, to notate sound, and by having the tools we have today, it really seems we've come full circle with music. Want to copyright your music? Send a disc in with the SR (Sound Recording) form, pay the fee, and there you go. Nobody has to write the notes down anymore (or hire someone to score it for you); you just send it the direct version.

At the very first, it was just about the music. Then we needed notation so it wouldn't be lost and could be repeated, and now...maybe it can just be about the music again, like it was supposed to be in the first place.

Just some thoughts on the subject. :)

I use tab and regular notation - it depends on the song I'm learning. I think that anythign that helps people to play is a positive. I understand where KP is coming from, but - like RParker - my goal in picking up this guitar thing at 30 years old was to learn how to play a bunch of songs and see where I went from there. I'm still working on my goal. BUT, I understand KP because while I am now fairly proficient in the basics (some from TAB), I find myself thinking about playing out, joinging a band, etc... which I never thought about prior to becoming decent. In that sense, if I relied solely on TAB and had no music theory to fall back on I'd be in trouble.

Of course, for the counter argument I'll throw out that I heard an interview with Lindsey Buckingham last night and he delcared that he never learned to reasd music, nor can he follow a chord chart.

Discuss.

Of course, for the counter argument I'll throw out that I heard an interview with Lindsey Buckingham last night and he delcared that he never learned to reasd music, nor can he follow a chord chart.

Discuss.

Actually, with a bit more conversation with Buckingham that could produce another good argument for not using tab as well :)

If what he's saying is true, and for the moment I'll grant that it is, though I have reasons to doubt the statement, I will bet that Buckingham has a very well developed ear.

I will further be willing to wager that that developed ear was not developed using tab.

Most of my favorite guitarists don't read music. Gypsy jazz is largley an aural tradition and very little of it is captured in standard notation. Most of the best known practitioners have never learned to read music or tab. But they have the most amazing ears.

That skill is developed through years of listening to other musicians and responding with their own instruments. As well as very close tutoring by more experienced players from a very young age.

To be clear -- if folks want to use tab KNOWING that doing so frequently (or god forbid exclussively) will stunt their growth as musicians, but they evaluate the benefits as they see them and do so anyway -- then who am I to criticize?

However, it distresses me the number of people who fall to the seductive trap that tabs present and then years later decide they want to pursue music more seriously, and they find that they're quite a bit behind what is now their competition.

This happens even in adults.

And it's a shame.

once a person who plays at guitar (i won't use the term guitarist to avoid ruffling feathers) has used tab or notation or ear to learn to play a piece of music, who cares how they arrived there?
i am positive, reguardless of how it was done that the individual will alter the music in one way or another to fit their style or personality.
live music is always that way, even when a song is performed by the original artist.

tab has hastened my understanding of how to play some of my favorite tunes, after i get the gist of how it's played then i use my ear and alter the playing of the piece to represent how i like to play/hear it.

if some choose to poo poo my method of learning a song then so be it, i think it says volumes more about them then me and i could care less.
why? because either way i'm making music, and it's a lifting experiance whether i use notation, theory, tab , or cave paintings.

I forgot all about cave paintings! (They're just so inconvenient to carry around though!)
;)

I forgot all about cave paintings! (They're just so inconvenient to carry around though!)
;)

i have a 3/4 ton truck :wink:

btw that rant was not directed at anyone here, i really appreciate those of you who have actually studied music theory and can read or whatnot. i just think that in the realm of our mutual love of guitar that there is plenty of room under the tent for all methods.
people who are planning a career in music should heed the words of those who advocate learning the right way with notation and theory study as it will undoubtably benefit them in the long run

once a person who plays at guitar (i won't use the term guitarist to avoid ruffling feathers) has used tab or notation or ear to learn to play a piece of music, who cares how they arrived there?

When talking about any one piece of music someone learns, you're right, it doesn't matter at all.

When talking about every piece of music that a guitarist learns, however, then the issue arrises as to what effect that choice has on their capabilities as a musician.

When someone makes that choice with their eyes wide open it really is their choice and we should just wish them the best. But when someone makes that choice without knowing the effects of that choice then it becomes a question of what the impact of that choice is on them that they might not be aware of.

So when such a person raises the issue in a forum dedicated to people improving as guitarists, we should care.

I've removed a few posts, in part because one post drew a somewhat heated response.

Play nice, please.

When I was a boy my father used to often say, "one of the hardest things to understand is that people do not always think the same way you do."

And I think that applies to this thread. Kingpatzer, you are a music teacher. And so to you it is very important that people truly understand music. It is not enough to play well, but a person should understand what they are playing.

And this is 100% correct.

Others simply want to play their favorite songs and do not care so much about reading and theory.

And they are 100% correct too.

Playing guitar is an individual thing. That is probably the best thing about it. I read a Steve Vai interview once. He said what really attracted him to guitar was that nobody could tell him what to play, he could play anything he wanted to. And nobody could hold him back from being a great player. In this world we are often held back. You may be the best worker at your job and never get that promotion because the boss gives the job to a buddy instead.

But guitar you can play it anyway you want. If you want to play Punk with all downstrokes and power chords, you can. If you want to study and play Classical, you can.

There is no right or wrong. If someone wants to read tab and just play simple songs without understanding the theory behind the song, that works for that person.

I am a Rock player. I love other styles but Blues and Rock has always been my love. You don't have to know a whole lot of theory for these styles. It is more in your ears and heart than mind. If I wanted to play Classical then I would absolutely study sight-reading and theory. But I simply am not that interested in this style.

A Country player doesn't necessarily have to know how to read or understand theory. Man, they are just playing G, C, and D7 chords. And if that turns them on, power to them.

Not putting down learning or knowledge. But not everybody feels the need to be a master musician. Most just want to play some barre chords with distortion.

I'd never seen or heard of guitar tablature until I discovered GN.....I did find it quite easy to pick up though, as opposed to reading music. Once i discovered not every chord is played with all six strings, I started looking up different tabs, trying them out, and reaaly LISTENING to what guitarists were doing.

I don't bother much with tab sites now - the last couple of years, my "ear for music" seems to have developed so's I can pretty much recognise any chord - still the odd ones I struggle with though. I do get a real kick out of working it out myself, but if it hadn't been for GN and a couple of other sites, I'd probably still be struggling with songs that only used G, Em C and D...

:D :D :D

Vic

If you actually think about it, tab is no different to notation as they are both ways of converting music into text and both have an advantage over the other. Surely its up to an individual to choose which route he or she takes in learning to play guitar.

I picked up guitar in my teens and gave up pretty quickly once I was confronted with notation. It was like trying to learn two things at the same time.
I then in later life picked up guitar again, thinking to myself "right I'm gonna learn this come hell or high water. and purely by accident discovered tablature and found it so easy to play to and follow that all I had to do was really concentrate on playing the instrument. Ok Vic you may say its making it too easy for everybody, why shouldn't it be easy for those who just want to be able to play their favourite songs?

I am now after 4 years of playing starting to pick up on theory and am able to understand chord structure and come to think about it even tell you the chords for a i v iv progression in E or A. Its amazing what you can pick up and not realise it, but if it were not for tab I probably wouldn't even have a guitar in the house.

Tablature is a good thing (imho) :wink:

Good to hear about the barre chords Vic, Rock and roll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D