The $400 question.

But i didn't mean to dis your pick actually it was just the trick question aspect I was a bit annoyed with: here's a fun game, surprise it's actually an opportunity to give you my views on cheap amps. My picks dis all you want, not playing with a drummer it's good to know what someone who does thinks about the topic (and this is the opinion board after all). One thing you sort of mention in passing is second hand gear and there I completely agree, you can get good stuff second hand both for guitars and amps and if resale value is an issue then second hand gear will change less than new gear (unless it falls apart or you destroy it). On a tight budget it can really make a difference.

The loudness issue about modelling compared to tube amps continues to puzzle me, though so many people talk about it I'm willing to believe it. Granted, you're comparing two slightly different things, the rated power output for an amplifier that you're going to overdrive anyway compared to the power output of effectively a solid state PA that you're trying to run clean. However, as you mention, perceived loudness is logarithmic, the Jet City 20W isn't going to be overdriving to 40W is it? (and overdriving occurs as the amp gets to the point it can't add any more power). Mind you, those tube amps and their rating come from an era when engineers gave those numbers, not the marketing department, so that could be a factor.

Possibly the speakers are the thing as you suggest. I was going to suggest the old RMS/Peak power joke that used to plague hi-fis, but looking at the specs for the Mustang I for example it's rated 20W 8ohms 5%THD, with an 8ohm speaker. Maybe there's something about the power spectrum of modelling versus straight amplifiers that means perceived volume is lower, though you'd expect plain solid state amplifiers to match tube amps if that was the case.

Of course perceived volume cuts both ways: your drummer needs to hit twice as hard to get 10dB more and pretty soon you're driven to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnzFRV1LwIo .

The other thing I have found with amps is that what you think is loud or has a great tone in your living room when you are playing by yourself is a whole different ball game when you are playing with a drummer and other instruments.

I found that alot of stuff sounds great by yourself but sounds like total crap or gets lost in the mix in a live situation.

The other thing I have found with amps is that what you think is loud or has a great tone in your living room when you are playing by yourself is a whole different ball game when you are playing with a drummer and other instruments.
I found that alot of stuff sounds great by yourself but sounds like total crap or gets lost in the mix in a live situation.

This is true. Before our drummer passed, I was using a modeling amp in a band situation believe it or not. It was a 75 watt Peavey VYPYR. The tones I would dial in by myself did not necessarily work the best with the band. It was a $300 amp, it was loud enough and it did work in the band situation. I did subsequently purchase a large 100 watt tube amp head for my Fender 4 X 12 cab but I had no issues with the 75 watt moddeler being loud enough.

Can't remember if it was here or elsewhere that I first saw someone posting about Fletcher-Munson/Equal loudness curves: http://www.setbb.com/axefx/viewtopic.php?t=5417&mforum=axefx which mean e.q. changes as you change volume, on top of hearing the guitar in contrast to everything else http://www.legendarytones.com/eqtips.html .

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-spl.htm

Darn you Imalone! You foiled my well laid plot to start a thread hoping that people would fall into my trap just so I could interject my pre-planned follow ups. I had months of threads written out and organized and now they are all useless!!! Now I have to start all over without the use of hyperbole about inter-generational relationships and clearer inferences so as not to be perceived as passing comments. NOOOOO!!!!

Seriously, sorry to annoy you, imalone.

You won't be getting anybody's hormones in a twist for a while in any case if all you did with the flattop was "lovingly plunk it for a few weeks."
LOL!! Or in my case for a few years!!!!!!!!

You know.... if you changed this to "a new guy, playing about a year wants to get a band together, and has $400 bucks for his gear...." would change things up a lot

You won't be getting anybody's hormones in a twist for a while in any case if all you did with the flattop was "lovingly plunk it for a few weeks."
LOL!! Or in my case for a few years!!!!!!!!

You know.... if you changed this to "a new guy, playing about a year wants to get a band together, and has $400 bucks for his gear...." would change things up a lot

Okay than, so this new guy...

Every home should have a beat up flat top everybody gets to plunk for awhile as well as an out of tune piano and a harmonica.

You won't be getting anybody's hormones in a twist for a while in any case if all you did with the flattop was "lovingly plunk it for a few weeks."
LOL!! Or in my case for a few years!!!!!!!!

You know.... if you changed this to "a new guy, playing about a year wants to get a band together, and has $400 bucks for his gear...." would change things up a lot

Okay than, so this new guy...

Every home should have a beat up flat top everybody gets to plunk for awhile as well as an out of tune piano and a harmonica.

That I agree with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got a beat up old Epi accustic I got for free and rebuilt, and eaven have a yardsale 1/2 size I rebuilt for any kids!!! Well that and the reso is always out on the stand. :D ......I do need to shop for that piano though....

@SS1120 I live in Troy, small world.

@SS1120 I live in Troy, small world.
Cool. Ya, im a tick south/east of you. I work in Troy though. Near HVCC

Alright, I play at Dublin Underground from time to time, I'll let you know next time I play in the area.