SUNDAY SONGWRITER'S GROUP - WEEK 45

Well, I guess I won't take any offense at that since I somehow managed to attain the title of jokey songwriter on this group (which I wear proudly, by the way.). But jokey or not, I do think you need at least a little angst to write well.
Joe

I'm right with you on the angst thing there Joe. Even with comedy you could say that it's the necessary seasoning that makes the sharp clever humour stand out from the merely bland gags.

I can do sad and introspective too, but I like a bit of variety. I know that with all the regulars here, that there is enough confidence, ability and commitment to a personal style to not be diverted by one request for a change of balance on the forum. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like to see a wider spread of styles each week - not for us all to switch from one style to another. Some posters here do the more intense personal stuff very well, and I'd hate to see that disappear. I'd just like to see a few more different colours on the overall canvas.

I also think it's a tough challenge to break away from the gloomier stuff. I've set myself a goal for my first year at attempting songs that I'll try and produce at least some happy and upbeat songs without being corny or cliched about it (and that's a difficult assignment - drama and disaster is always easier to script). I wasn't even close last week, and this week's effort is shaping to be a cop out on my part too... :oops:

I'm just delighted to be able to take my first steps at songwriting in such excellent company. I've learned so much already from everybody here - both through comments received, and also from doing what Vic called "reverse engineering" the work of others here to try and see why it worked or why I thought it didn't.

Cheers, Chris

Couple things to say before this gets locked :o

1. I'm currently taking a psycology class, and I learned that Aristotle's theory of the way we get our knowledge is through experience. If we grew up with some angst, then we'll express and write about some angst (cheap therapy, lol.) So, some are inspired to write differently than others.

2. Some people like to write like they're telling a dramatic story, others write a joyful story.

3. This discussion just gave me a great idea for my song. I'll attempt to write and post it, and, if I do, read it and tell me what you think. I'm afraid it will still be with angst, though! :oops: Can't help it. It's all that d*mn experience! :?

Yet another half done effort by somebody who has never contributed to the discussions but just wants the rest of us to tell them how cool their stuff is. :?

Guilty. I've been posting more songs than comments. But know why? I find it just plainly hard. Difficult. Posting a song is easy. It's personal, you can always defend what you mean by it. But when commenting others, I always go through a youdontknowwhatyourtalkingabout phase, and most often I delete the entire reply I wanted to post. Replying on someone's song is mostly based on a feeling, and those differ between people. I often think that it's just something I feel, not something that poster needs. Another opinion on the work might as well be usefull so I'll work on that, I'll just close my eyes and try to hit the submit button instead of the browsers back button ;)

I'm like most in that I really dont like giving comments to people about their songs. I feel like, "Who the heck am I?" Its been 17 years since I have written a complete song. Most the time I give positive feedback on the things I really really like. My thought is that people generally know when something is really wrong, so if you tell them the things that you feel are right then it will help them in a positive direction.

When I was coaching soccer it was the same thing. When a kid would completely screw up a kick or a pass, you could see in their faces that they knew they could do better. So I focused on telling them "Good job" for the things they did right.

Occasionally, something stand out. It may be nothing. It may not have been what the writer meant. It may be that you are interpreting it wrong. And I'll point those out sometimes, even though I generally feel horrible about doing so. But, as in the case with Gunslingers song, people are usually mature enough to know that you are just trying to help. They can ignore your thoughts or act on them.

I like it when people post a MP3 with the song. I cant look at lyrics and tell what it is supposed to sound like. If there isnt a way to record then its nearly as good if they can just write it out in tab with the chord changes about the lyrics. Atleast this way I can strum along and tell what they want it to sound like.

I prefer sad songs. I like songs that make you cry. I can understand some people not liking them or getting tired of them but personally its what I like.

Geoo

I know how you feel geoo. I hate to criticise someone elses work no matter what it is. It's even worse on internet forums, because even though the words may sound nasty, the feeling behind them is genuinely helpful, but feeling is hard to convey though text.

However, I realized recently (after posting my own song) that people post for critique and critisism. That means I'll be giving some. But for goodness sakes people, if you're reading this realize that I'm only trying to be helpful. I dont know the people behind the name, so I dont know if someone has a fragile ego, although I get the feeling that Chris_C at least can take it, and I'm sure there are others. Hopefully I can feel people out a bit and find out who can take a punch so that I dont feel so bad trying to be helpful.

I I dont know the people behind the name, so I dont know if someone has a fragile ego, although I get the feeling that Chris_C at least can take it, and I'm sure there are others. Hopefully I can feel people out a bit and find out who can take a punch so that I dont feel so bad trying to be helpful.

When I start posting songs again, please by all means, I can definately take a punch. I see it this way, if you have any desire of recording, or producing a song, and putting it out for others to hear, or even just playing it in public, you'd better be able to handle criticism.

Because no matter what you do; there will be those that like it, those that don't, and those that just don't care one way or the other. And, from my limited experience, I can tell you there will be at least one loudmouth, or drunk yelling you suck.

Ignore those people, write and sing what pleases you first. And <flips the bird> em if they don't get it. :P

Well for starters I hope this thread doesn't get locked cos there's a lot of good discussion here.
Karla said:
I find it just plainly hard
You bet, but I tell you what, trying to critique someone else's song is the best way I know to learn how to write songs. By analysing other peoples stuff you get to understand what works and doesn't work. That's certainly been my experience anyway. It forces you to do a little bit of homework too, so you come across as an idiot.
But it works the other way as well, as Gunslinger says
However, I realized recently (after posting my own song) that people post for critique
Your friends and family are always going to be slightly biased when you ask them, but someone on the other side of the world is going to much more objective.
As a poster I value any feedback, I might not agree with the reviewer entirely, but they wouldn't have picked me up on something if there wasn't something to pick me up on.
So I find Im learning by participating as a “Poster” and “Reviewer”.
Cheers
pbee

But when commenting others, I always go through a youdontknowwhatyourtalkingabout phase, and most often I delete the entire reply I wanted to post. Replying on someone's song is mostly based on a feeling, and those differ between people.

The thing is, the audience for music is just a whole bunch of other people just like you. So your opinion is as valid as anybody's. If somebody tells me that they can't understand a word I've written, or the song sucks (or whatever) it isn't going to destroy me, but it will make me wonder how many more people there are who will have just the same response.

It may or may not make me change what I did, but all feedback is worth having and worth considering. Companies spend millions every year paying to gather feedback and adjusting their pitch to suit the market they're aiming at.

Glad to see you changed your mind too. The advice you gave me about my singing was very welcome and I'm going to follow it!! :D

So I find Im learning by participating as a “Poster” and “Reviewer”.
Cheers
pbee

Last week a friend asked me what "Qui Docet Discit" meant.

I looked it up, and guess what:

"He who teaches learns".

So it's a well established principle. :D Not sure who first said it though. Any Latin scholars out there??

So I find Im learning by participating as a “Poster” and “Reviewer”.
Cheers
pbee

Last week a friend asked me what "Qui Docet Discit" meant.

I looked it up, and guess what:

"He who teaches learns".

So it's a well established principle. :D Not sure who first said it though. Any Latin scholars out there??

Sorry I only got A's in lunch and cheerleaders. :shock: :wink: :lol:

Chris

maybe BEER SONGS ? mmmmmmm beer
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
sing-a-long beers songs

I believe that most people who are serious about their writing post for an honest, helpful critique. Operative word being helpful. If I don't have anything constructive to say, and I'm not crazy about the song, I don't say anything. If I like the song but have nothing to offer, I just say, great song, or something to that effect. If I'm not sure I like it but can't put my finger on why, I might get back to it when I can offer something helpful. And then, of course there are times--and for some reason, I have a feeling Chris is with me on this--when I'm sitting here scratching my head, reading all the praises of a song I think is at best, mediocre. My point? Well, like someone said above, what the hell do I know? So again, I just keep my mouth shut. I do try to read as many posts as possible, and post whenever I can, even if it's merely words of encouragement. Sometimes I think people are nitpicky, trying to mold other's songs into the type of music they prefer. But for the most part, at least in my case, everyone on here has been helpful, and never unkind. Okay, I'm starting to forget what my original point was, so it's time to stop talking. Oh, yeah, Karla, just say what you feel. Be tactful, but be honest, and be helpful when you can. If ten people hate the song and you love it, say so, (especially if it's mine, hehe). By the way, I've been wanting to post a song for you, based on one of your titles from way back when, but none of the assignments have allowed me to cheat yet. I keep having to write new stuff. Oh wait...that's good, right? Okay, I'll shut up now.

Joe

Chris - that's the interpretation other people put on an assignment. As you say the assignment could be about a one armed pirate with a limp and a lisp and a conscience that won't let him plunder and someone could transfigure that into the demon of their early life and love experience.

Love, hurt, pain and angst are the noisiest of our emotions and there will always be more of those songs than any other. Most music acts back catalogue is full of them. Exceptions being early REM before Out of Time made them more out of their depth.

It's entirely up to you what you write about (and in this I'll say at least you're writing whereas my pen has been quiet for so long now). It is refreshing as a reader to read light hearted efforts or socio-politico-economic songs. They're all just as valid.

I'll finish by saying there are, in my opinion, only two types of song good and bad but even those will differ person to person.

Thanks for the input and subsequent discussion though I do value it which is why I haven't locked it or stopped it. This isn't usually a discussion forum but we touched on critiquing which is what we're all after.

Bob :wink: