Good tube amp from $300-$700?

And solid-state amps never made me too happy as well. Regardless of these tests you hear where people could not tell the difference between a tube and solid-state, I think I could tell. Or at least let me put it like this. I have never been able to get a tone from a solid state amp that I truly liked. It always sounded a little harsh and artificial to me.

Might I ask how expensive those solid-states were? If you are comparing tubes with solid-state, you have to take proper amps to compare. I've seen people with Mesa-Boogie stacks plug into a small 15W crate to try 'solid-state' amps. Nonsense! If you have a $2000 tube amp, compare it with a $2000 silid-state. Trust me, a Line6 Vetta amp does not sound harsh, or cheap or digital.

If we would put your Hotrod and my Behringer next to each other, and blindfold you, you would darn well hear the differences. But not because one is tube and one is not, but because one is a good quality amp and the other is aimed at poor students on a budget. Ofcourse your amp will be better. Ofcourse a Digitech RP12 through a solidstate will not sound killer, the RP12 isn't a worldclass device.

I would really like you or Joe to check out the modern, topclass modeling amps. You will be amazed...

Good arguments Arjen. I've owned a few solid state amps over the years. The one I liked best I can't remember what it was. It was an English amp with 2 X 10 speakers. It had the warmest, most natural sound from a solid-state I've ever heard. A young fellow borrowed it from me for "one gig" and never returned it. Then he moved and I've never been able to track my amp down.

The RP12 had excellent effects. That is not what I'm saying. I have heard many good effects units live. A buddy of mine has the Boss GT6, I've heard that many times.

So I've heard good effects through pretty good amps. But live, I just don't like them. This may offend some people, just my personal opinion, but effects are "corny". They sound good at first, but to me they are kind of a gimmick. I think they can be a crutch.

I am not trying to put anyone down who likes effects. I hook up about 5 pedals when I play live. But I use them only a very little. Just here and there for certain songs.

No, what I was trying to say is that Frank the guitarist is old-school, a purist. He probably just loves good old guitar straight into an amp with natural tube overdrive. And this is what I am saying about myself as well.
I've tried effects but getting a great straight tone sounds best to me. If you get that tube overdrive and tone just right, it is awesome. When I've got that, I don't need any effects. Think AC/DC.

I was talking about personal taste. I respect everyone's personal taste. My ex-father-in-law used to pour ketchup on his mashed potatoes. Augh!!
But heh, that's what he likes. More power to him.

I just felt Frank was putting pressure on Dennis to get a sound Frank liked, and just telling Dennis to ignore this and go for the sound and tone he likes. Otherwise he won't be happy.

The old Sly and the Family Stone song says it all.

"Different strokes, for different folks"

Wes

Oh, I totally agree, and the effects VS no effects discussion is just a matter of taste. However, the Tonelab device is not just about effects, it is mostly about modeling, which is totally different. Check this:
http://www.voxamps.co.uk/downloads/Stevie%20Blues%20Tone%20Lab.mp3

Remember this is from a 'mere' $400 device. Sounds nifty, right? I know I wouldn't be ashamed if I sounded like that on-stage...

And yeah, he should go for what he wants. No way he will enjoy playing if he would be forced to sound like something he doesnt want to sound like.

Yes, that sounded great. Let me guess the name of that Pre-set.

"SRV"??

I agree with you, technology is getting great today. You can get just about any sound possible with the new modeling amps. And they do sound just like a tube amp. Very impressive. And if this is what someone wants they should get it.

But playing live is not quite like playing at home or recording. Live, you need things to be as simple as possible, and they have to sound good. And you don't get a second chance. In my band I play all the rhythm, lead, and do 80% of the singing. That is a lot going on at once. When you are singing, and you have to be on the mic, you don't want to be doing a tap dance with your feet at the same time.

But that is only part of the problem. Not only have I played live many times, but I go to see live bands on a regular basis. I have seen and heard effects units mess up a band's sound many times. Live, you want a very simple, pure, un-cluttered sound. It is not like a recording with multiple layers of guitar tracks. That would sound terrible live. Effects many times cloud-up a live performance. I've always said they sound like "air". And they do. But you get a good solid guitar tone that cuts through the mix, a great solid bass, drums, and clear vocals with a "touch" of reverb, then you are going to get the best live mix you've ever heard.

I have also heard effects mess up the vocals for many a live band. Too much effects for a live band just don't get it in my opinion.

Here's my issue with some of the modelers/emulators -- especially those of earlier designs and lower costs: Great when recording, but almost lifeless live. I think the reason is pretty simple. The older and lower cost stuff doesn't reproduce analog playing dynamics that well. When recording, this can be compensated in the mix by riding the fader or working with the volume envelope control or even using another FX loop. But live a player must have some on-the-spot dynamic control using only the fingers -- play harder = sounds louder or louder + different. Having this control gives the player a much palette of expression.

Recent DSP-based and hybrid analog/DSP products are doing a much better job in this area, and I would certainly expect something as pricey as the Vetta to measure up. And the Vox Tonelab series is getting some very good comparative reviews. But I have to say than even my POD 2.0 (with upgraded firmware) demostrates some dynamics limitations during live playing, so I've stopped using it for that purpose. Sometimes is was just too similar to using a cheap fuzz box -- one tonal color, one loudness per setting.

Everyone should play what (s)he likes, but remember there are some big differences between live and studio perfomances and how the music from each is processed and delivered (promo samples included!). For me, it is better to find one or two good live tones that I can work and bend to my needs than having device that will give me 10 mediocre amp models at a push of the switch. I have my hands full trying to work just one good tone.

Greg, that is the smallest amp head ever. One watt? Holy cow, that's definitely a recording amp. I read the literature and it sounds cool. A bit pricey for something the size of your palm. I'm glad that link is now available in this post.

Wes, you got me laughing! Yea, I won't go into all the details about Frank but he has a generally negative outlook on people and the world. But he's a good guitar player and has great ears. We all have our good/bad points.

Even though he wants me to get a new amp and pedals he says rhythm players only need solid-state amps. Only the lead players need tube amps. I can't buy that from a guy who has played 30+ years and plays through a $200 Crate amp and a $150 electric guitar. I figure he's had time to get some good equipment but he doesn't want to spend the money. He spends it on other things.

I just checked out that Atomic amp. It's all tube A/B so that's cool. I don't think they listed the wattage correctly (300wRMS) But, for $500, I think I'd rather have a Fender for a few bucks more. It's more mainstream if I wanted to sell it down the line.

I didn't mean to go off into a billion directions with this post. I'll be sure to keep it on amps from now on to keep some consistency. My brain goes in too many directions, lol!

Ooops, I did not see the posts on page 4. Arjen, good point about comparing amps of the same price. That being said, I'd imagine the Vetta is the most expensive ss amp around. It would be nice to compare that with tube amps of the same price.

Yea, Frank wants me to get a simple setup like him. I think you may have given him a bit too much credit about being a tube purist. He's never owned a tube amp. So that's not what's driving him. Even though he's 18 years my senior, I'm thirty-something so I'm not swayed much by his opinion. Rather, I take the advice here much more to heart.

Why? I (as most people do) evaluate the information based on what I think the person knows. Many factors go into that, but having read stuff here for the past couple of years, I've gotten to ‘know' many of you based on your writing. And that goes a long way to help me make decisions.

All in all, I'd imagine the first 5 years of playing is plagued with upgrading gear. The “well, now I need this” and a vast array of experimentation with different things. I knew when I bought my RP300 after a month of playing guitar it would not stay with me forever. It served its intended purpose: to keep me playing guitar. Once I knew I would keep playing I knew I could upgrade and buy other things.

I figure, at some point, the GAS syndrome dies down and you just accept the gear you have and play. Even better, sell everything and just play acoustic. That way you sound just like what you are playing. No gimmicks!
:wink:

I agree with Gnease. Live, I try to get a great clean tone, which you can absolutely get with a Strat and a Hot Rod Deluxe. They are made for each other. Then I try to get a nice slightly overdriven tone on the Drive channel. This sounds great for Classic rock. That is the sound they had. But it stinks on something like Nirvana. For that I use my Fab Tone to get the modern distortions.

What I was saying about effects is this. Take panning. Panning sounds awesome through headphones. If you have a good stereo with the speakers in each corner of your room it still sounds good, but not as good as it did through headphones. Now you try panning in a large club where your speakers are 50 feet apart. It sounds terrible. The effect is totally lost. You cannot follow the panning from one side of the room to the other. People on one side will hear your guitar, people on the other side will just hear the other instruments, no guitar at all.

This is why most soundpeople will advise you not to run a PA in stereo. It does not work in large rooms. The bigger the room, the worse it is.

And heavy reverbs, phase, effects like that do not sound good live either. They just go off in the air. No one will even hear your guitar. I've heard this many times. Heck, I've experienced it personally. My bass player will say, "Don't use those effects, they sound terrible!" And he's got a great ear. So I use them very sparingly.

No, just get a great tone on your guitar and play that solo. Everybody will hear it nice and clear. Live, you want a nice tight sound with seperation of instruments. Boring?? I don't think so.

Wes